From Apprentice to DevOps Engineer: Here's the Exact Path He Took

[00:00] I went from more than 16 out of 20 to [00:03] less than eight, like less than nine out [00:05] of 20. And even in mathematics and [00:07] physics, I think I was at six or [00:09] something like this. He told me, I doubt [00:12] that I'm skeptical that you are capable [00:14] of solving this problem. And I felt in [00:16] my heart, okay, I'm going to show it to [00:18] you that I'm capable. In France, we've [00:20] got the expression under the water. [00:23] You're basically like diving and not [00:25] able to emerge from the water. Sometimes [00:28] you need to take the risk even if it [00:31] feels kind of scary. I invested like, [00:34] yeah, okay, maybe €1,600, [00:38] but today without taxes, I'm at almost [00:41] like €3,000 [00:43] per month. So twice as much, you know, [00:46] >> in just one month. [00:47] >> Yeah, in just one month. It's not going [00:48] to knock at your door and say, "Hey, I [00:52] want to hire you." You need to show like [00:54] your skills, your projects on LinkedIn, [00:57] on Medium, on GitHub. [00:59] >> Out of roughly 10,000 people who have [01:03] come through our trainings, every now [01:05] and then, one story makes our whole team [01:08] stop and say, "You need to talk to this [01:11] person." Amin is one of them. Here's [01:13] why. A few years ago, Amin was a top [01:16] student. He finished high school with [01:17] the highest honors, highest scores. Then [01:21] he started his IT studies during COVID [01:23] and his grades collapsed. He dropped [01:26] from highest scores to less than 9 out [01:29] of 20, six out of 20 in math and [01:32] physics. A lot of people would have [01:34] thought, I'm done. This is not for me. [01:37] Obviously, I'm not good enough. I'm not [01:39] talented enough in this. So, maybe I [01:41] should try something different. but he [01:43] instead used it to completely pivot and [01:48] even outperform everyone else. So [01:50] basically instead of saying I'm not good [01:52] enough because I'm failing all these [01:55] courses, he decided maybe my approach to [01:58] learning is not good enough, maybe I [02:01] should have a different system to get [02:03] higher grades. So he basically [02:05] completely changed how he learned and [02:08] rebuilt his entire learning process from [02:11] scratch. And within a few years, he not [02:14] only graduated successfully, but he also [02:17] went from a manual test automation [02:20] apprentice job to a permanent DevOps and [02:24] infrastructure engineer role at Tales, [02:27] the company he works for, building [02:29] systems for the French army. His salary [02:32] roughly doubled in a single month when [02:35] he made that switch. So in this video [02:37] you will see exactly how he did it. How [02:40] he went from failing in his studies with [02:44] bad grades to having a proper learning [02:47] system for himself. So this was all [02:49] before our trainings. How he landed a [02:52] job that he wasn't qualified for. why he [02:55] chose to invest in structured learning [02:59] and how he switched roles internally [03:02] instead of waiting passively for someone [03:04] to promote him to a DevOps engineer [03:07] role. So if you are a student or a [03:09] junior engineer staring at this massive [03:12] mountain of everything you think you [03:15] need to learn and wondering whether it's [03:18] even worth it, then this one's for you. [03:21] Let's get into it. So first of all tell [03:23] me about your current state right what [03:25] is your job title what do you do like [03:27] daytoday how would you describe your [03:30] work right now in your own words [03:32] >> it's actually very broad because at my [03:35] talis company we are not supposed to [03:38] like to be very specific my job title [03:42] like the small one is devops engineer [03:45] but uh the complete one is [03:47] infrastructure devops system engineering [03:51] IT So a lot of it's very broad actually [03:55] there are some kind of devops task like [03:58] automate the deployment of like with [04:02] kubernetes hand file and those type of [04:05] stuff but like set up a registry for [04:08] container images those kind of stuff [04:10] like automate the complete workflow [04:14] there is no continuous integration but [04:16] continuous deployment like we've got [04:18] delivery from another part of the [04:21] company on our project and we've got to [04:24] I got to implement it to integrate it in [04:26] our physical like bare metal servers you [04:29] know and other tasks are like really [04:32] focused on networking like [04:34] infrastructure my project is called [04:38] which is for the French army so it's [04:40] really interesting you can consider that [04:43] in each vehicle there is like a small [04:45] data center so we've got like physical [04:49] cards with a motherboard. So it's really [04:52] a complex architecture. Even me with [04:55] like few months in it, I don't [04:57] understand like everything yet. We've [05:00] got to implement like network [05:01] configuration. A lot of Linux. Linux is [05:04] like really important to notice that the [05:07] DevOps culture is like split in uh [05:10] configuration management team and uh [05:13] infrastructure team where I'm in. The [05:16] configuration management team is doing a [05:17] lot of Genkins. Genkins is everywhere. I [05:20] do not do a lot of Genkins to be honest [05:23] with you. So the infrastructure is like [05:26] focused on networking like between [05:29] software application and hardware there [05:31] is infrastructure in it. [05:37] So now take me back to when you got into [05:41] tech and IT in general like how many [05:43] years because you studied cyber security [05:46] you studied the um I think it was [05:49] networking. How did you even get into [05:51] tech? What was your first like studies [05:53] but also the first work experience in [05:55] the IT? [05:56] >> Okay, I can go back to like the [05:58] beginning that was during COVID. I was [06:00] at the end of high school, you know, and [06:02] I didn't want to have like uh there are [06:06] some tracks, you know, very scientific [06:08] and those other tracks where it's more [06:11] focused on technical stuff with a little [06:13] bit less of mathematics and physics, you [06:16] know. And one thing that was really hard [06:20] is because um I went to the like this is [06:25] not online forum where you can apply for [06:29] schools and I had to be among the top 10 [06:32] in France just to be admitted in like to [06:36] to be higher I don't know how to say [06:39] that uh in the engineering school and I [06:41] passed at the like at the first attempt [06:44] so I was like really glad But uh to be [06:47] honest during the first few months of [06:49] engineering school we got what we call [06:52] integrated prepa. So it's a preparation [06:56] in two years but it's like really really [06:58] hard. You got to like do not socialize a [07:02] lot like Anna said one day. Uh and I had [07:08] less than nine out of 20. Yeah. I was [07:12] like really really bad and because I had [07:17] the highest honor for the you know the [07:20] buck for the final exam of high school I [07:23] had the highest highest honor. I am more [07:26] than 16 out of 20 and I went from 16 [07:31] more than 16 out of 20 to less than [07:33] eight like less than n out of 20 and [07:37] even in mathematics and physics I think [07:40] I was at six or something like this. I [07:42] think I just did not give up. I think I [07:46] I started to to work hard to learn how [07:49] to learn like asking myself did I learn [07:53] correctly like all the concepts and [07:56] after some times it went like when it [07:59] was kind of kind of smooth you know now [08:02] it was back then like at the beginning [08:05] of the third year in computer network [08:07] security program uh I had 20 out of 20 [08:11] in mathematics. Yeah. So like it it paid [08:15] off the all the suffering you know it pa [08:19] it paid off. [08:20] >> So tell me about two things. First of [08:22] all um how did you go from low having [08:26] low grades and you know feeling really [08:29] bad about it to like what did you change [08:31] in your learning style? What did you [08:33] change in your mindset to basically just [08:35] be like you know what I can fix this and [08:38] turn it around? basically uh because uh [08:42] uh during high school I only had to like [08:46] to focus during the class and that's it. [08:48] That was sufficient. And I had to [08:51] realize first that I've got to work. [08:54] That's something simple simple really [08:56] simple to say but I've I've got to work. [08:59] I've got to be organized. I've got to [09:02] like to I think the main point is to [09:06] learn how to learn. So when I'm reading [09:09] the um you know the the PDF that uh the [09:13] teachers were sending or the notes that [09:16] I was taking [09:19] I learned one thing that when I'm [09:22] reading something if there is one word [09:25] that um I do not understand like I [09:29] cannot put a definition on that word I [09:32] cannot explain it very clearly I've got [09:35] to stop and to search for it and that is [09:39] one of the main things uh that like help [09:43] helped me out a lot today like when I [09:46] learn something like whatever is if is [09:49] if Kubernetes or another thing today [09:53] nowadays I'm like I've got some [09:57] schedules um I'm like like a clock some [10:01] people might call me like a clock like [10:03] okay this is time for this and this I've [10:06] my own schedules to to be organized. [10:08] Okay. And at the end of the day, I need [10:11] to do those tasks and like if um I do [10:17] not do that. I've got I've got to do it [10:19] like whatever. Um maybe sometimes I've [10:23] got like no I don't know how to call [10:27] that in English but um I do not expect [10:31] for example something to happen. So I've [10:33] got to to delay to delay it. No, but uh [10:37] I I'm really like focused um really uh [10:43] I don't know how how to say that but um [10:46] yeah I I need to be like very strictly [10:50] organized. So that's the main the main [10:53] thing. [10:53] >> I want to pause on what Ammon just [10:55] described because it is the most useful [10:59] thing in this whole story and I don't [11:01] want you to miss this. when his grades [11:03] completely collapsed, he didn't just [11:05] say, "Oh, I'm bad at this subject and [11:08] therefore I'm not getting good grades." [11:11] Instead, he just thought, "Maybe my [11:13] learning approach is not right. Maybe my [11:17] understanding of how to learn is [11:19] actually wrong, so I can adjust my [11:21] learning approach to get the grades [11:23] instead of blaming it on my talent or [11:25] lack of talent." And there was actually [11:27] an easy hack for that. When you're [11:29] reading something and you hit a concept [11:32] or definition that you cannot define or [11:35] explain yourself, you stop and you go [11:38] find out what it means before moving on. [11:41] That's it. That one habit is the [11:43] difference between reading something [11:45] passively half understanding it and [11:47] moving on to actually understanding the [11:50] concept so well that you can explain it [11:53] in your own words. So, if you've ever [11:55] finished a tutorial and felt like [11:57] nothing stuck, this is usually why you [12:00] let the words you don't understand just [12:02] slide by. You don't stop and pause when [12:05] you don't understand something. Your [12:06] brain almost shuts off automatically [12:08] after hearing a bunch of unfamiliar [12:10] words. Amin took that habit of pausing [12:13] to really understand each concept [12:16] explanation and he used that habit all [12:19] the way from passing exams with high [12:22] grades to learning Kubernetes [12:25] infrastructure and all the DevOps [12:27] concepts and tools. But learning how to [12:30] learn was actually just half of it [12:33] because around the same time he had to [12:35] go find a company to take him on as an [12:38] apprentice. And that's where things got [12:40] interesting. So he was applying for a [12:43] networking and security role with, in [12:45] his own words, almost no real skills [12:48] yet. So let's look at how he landed that [12:51] job. Anyway, [12:56] so you basically [12:59] improved your grades, so you feel good [13:01] about it. [13:02] >> And then you have to take this uh [13:04] internship at a company and you applied [13:06] for it. Did you think that it would be [13:08] so easy? Did you feel confident about [13:10] your knowledge thinking you know uh one [13:12] interview or a few interviews and I'm in [13:14] or what was it a surprise for you? [13:16] >> It was really a surprise to be honest [13:18] because at integrated prea I was [13:21] applying for computer network and [13:24] security program with like an [13:26] apprentichip contract with a lot of [13:28] computer network and security possibly. [13:31] I've never did like a single I almost [13:34] just know what an IP address was, you [13:36] know, so I had no absolutely no [13:39] knowledge. I felt like I'm not ready or [13:42] maybe it's going to be difficult. I do [13:45] not have the knowledge even though I [13:47] applied. There is some networking [13:49] concept in in this. Okay, I applied. I [13:51] don't have anything to lose. Okay, maybe [13:53] I'm going to be rejected but I don't [13:55] care. One day I had like a call from [13:59] Talis. Okay, they're interested into [14:01] knowing me and just like before the even [14:05] though even though in the like the PDF [14:08] they were saying uh yeah we need those [14:10] kind of skills and so on. I knew that I [14:13] didn't have another skill but I was [14:15] applying anyway and I told to myself [14:18] okay maybe it's going to work maybe it's [14:20] going to like not work and I did manage [14:23] to impress somehow to be honest I think [14:26] that wasn't about my technical skills [14:28] that helped me during the job interview [14:32] I showed that I was positive in my [14:34] mindset I was al also showing that I'm [14:38] really willing to learn I'm not scared [14:40] of learning even though the skills that [14:43] they were demanding were quite high. [14:45] Kubernetes on civil and and so on. When [14:48] I'm learning I was saying okay I'm [14:50] learning when I know I can say that I [14:52] know and I can explain some stuff and [14:54] when I don't know I can say that I can [14:56] learn you know I think that was more [14:58] about my mindset more than you know my [15:02] technical skills. [15:03] >> How do you think you were able to show [15:04] it to them though in the interview? like [15:07] did they ask you specific questions that [15:09] you use to show them you know what I [15:11] don't know this stuff but I am so [15:13] motivated to learn I have done this in [15:15] my studies like how did you convince [15:18] them to see that [15:19] >> for example they were asking about like [15:22] buff scripting and I said literally yeah [15:25] I worked Linux commands basic Linux [15:28] commands so for stuff like it was a plus [15:32] you know not something really mandatory [15:34] that was kubernetes and anible And I [15:36] said literally I don't know but I can [15:39] learn because there was two people in [15:42] front of me uh during this job interview [15:44] and one of them told me yeah that was [15:46] really what I was expecting you to say [15:49] because it's not mandatory so we are not [15:51] expecting you to know like to be really [15:53] good at this but we were expecting you [15:56] to know that you can learn. [16:01] >> Okay. So you start your apprentichip [16:03] there you start your work. How was the [16:06] first experience for you? Did you get [16:07] overwhelmed by your tasks? Did they [16:10] throw you into cold water or did you [16:13] have a mentor? Like do you remember the [16:15] like the first few days or weeks? [16:17] >> So that's some like kind of context. It [16:19] what was not a DevOps role. It was in [16:22] what we call IVQ. So my supervisor was [16:27] doing almost only manual test and I was [16:30] hired to automate those tests. who was [16:33] kind of an automation engineer. Yeah, I [16:35] was kind of overwhelmed because I didn't [16:38] know a lot even though my supervisor was [16:41] showing me like a networking switch. [16:44] Okay. Yeah, I'm discovering that right [16:46] now was kind of scary but I was kind of [16:49] pretending that uh okay, I know this, a [16:52] bit of this, a bit of that because I [16:55] follow a lot about your adventures even [16:58] like in your second channel. I know that [17:00] you were in the same situation as me. [17:03] Like you thought that everyone was like [17:06] perfect. We were just like pretending. [17:09] So I didn't want to show like yeah, I'm [17:12] really bad at this and that. But but I [17:15] assume that it was kind of normal [17:17] because I was still a student somehow. [17:20] Did you use the expression um I I um in [17:24] France we've got the expression under [17:26] the water like uh we don't I think you [17:30] use the expression in cold water. That's [17:33] right. [17:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. [17:34] >> Yeah. Okay. you're basically like diving [17:38] and not able to emerge from the water [17:41] but I'm like really kind of strong [17:44] mentally because I did the integrated uh [17:47] preparation during two two years I said [17:50] to myself after those two years I'm not [17:53] supposed to be afraid of anything. So it [17:55] seems like the pressure like a mental [17:58] pressure of there's university that you [18:01] went to where you had to like you had [18:03] this [18:03] >> I don't know how your curriculum looked [18:05] like but it seems like you had to learn [18:06] a lot and it was like very challenging [18:08] and difficult and you had to make the [18:09] grades like that made you mentally more [18:13] resilient and strong. [18:14] >> Exactly. So that it actually kind of [18:17] helps you build almost like a life [18:19] skill, right, for like seeing challenges [18:21] in life and like I've I've dealt with [18:23] worse. [18:24] >> It cannot be worse, you know, not the [18:26] correct expression. It cannot it cannot [18:28] be worse and most of the time I had to [18:31] ask other people like a developer you [18:34] know in front end because I had to [18:35] automate tasks. Have you ever heard of [18:37] Cypress like for front end automated [18:40] testing like just that was one guy that [18:43] I was like chatting with him a lot and [18:46] another guy he was what I called the [18:49] real engineer he was good in almost [18:52] everywhere I didn't feel like he wasn't [18:54] bad in anything so it I was really [18:57] impressed to be honest he was good in [18:59] cloud as cloud terraform on docker [19:02] kubernetes was managing like if he's not [19:06] E the whole project is like done over. [19:09] He was really impressive. [19:12] >> So typical DevOps engineer basically. [19:14] >> Yeah. Typical DevOps team. One guy that [19:16] knows of almost everything. [19:18] >> Knows everything. Yeah. [19:19] >> Yeah. And I've heard about DevOps that [19:21] it was really trendy. I've heard that [19:24] about like colleagues or mates in at [19:28] school and also my uncle he is an [19:31] engineer. So he told me about DevOps. So [19:34] I was really interested into knowing [19:36] more and I was really impressed uh by [19:39] him by the the DevOps engineer that was [19:42] working with me. That's why I decided to [19:45] to change because during the two first [19:48] years of uh the apprentichip contract I [19:51] wasn't really feeling that I was [19:53] learning a lot with my current [19:55] supervisor and that's okay. So you were [19:58] doing automated testing which is very [20:00] specific like niche task and then on the [20:03] other side you were seeing this person [20:05] who like test like automated testing is [20:08] just one tiny bit of their knowledge. [20:10] They know everything they can deal with [20:12] our infrastructure cloud the developers [20:15] and you look at them and it probably [20:18] seemed like it was super effortless [20:20] right and you're like I want that I want [20:22] that level of skill set and knowledge. [20:23] Right. What was your first ever exposure [20:27] like proper exposure in DevOps because [20:29] you probably heard about the term itself [20:32] probably heard okay this is a devos [20:33] process or maybe it's cool but what was [20:35] your first exposure yourself or where [20:38] where the seed was planted where you [20:40] felt like okay this is something [20:41] interesting that I want to kind of look [20:43] into [20:44] >> basically I was speaking with this guy [20:46] of my company a lot and he told me about [20:50] your channel personally when I'm [20:52] learning something I want to learn from [20:54] someone who knows what they are saying. [20:57] So I cannot learn false things and then [21:01] uh it's going to be a shame on me [21:03] because I I spent a lot of time knowing [21:06] absolutely like bull whatever. [21:09] >> That's also interesting. So you you [21:11] didn't want to waste time basically [21:12] learning from a source that was not [21:14] credible or you didn't know that it was [21:16] correct, right? And because you had [21:18] authority with this person with this [21:20] engineer at your work since he [21:22] recommended our video, you were like, [21:23] "Okay, then then it's validated so to [21:26] say." [21:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I trusted him fully. [21:28] Like, okay, if he's saying that, okay, [21:30] I'm going to trust him at 100%. So like [21:34] I watched some of your videos that was [21:37] about Docker because I did want to start [21:40] from the beginning like not going [21:42] directly to Kubernetes and I think that [21:45] at some point I heard about your IT [21:49] fundamental course that was kind of the [21:51] entry point you know I was kind of [21:54] amazed by uh okay in one single course I [21:58] can learn about the whole software [22:01] development life cycle like each app how [22:04] it works and I was like it's really like [22:07] a gold mine you know so in just a short [22:10] period of time because I had already [22:12] some basics uh with my engineering [22:14] school but in web development in the [22:16] software development life cycle I wanted [22:18] to really understand I was really happy [22:21] at the end to be honest because I really [22:24] felt like okay all those mysteries like [22:27] web development how do we manage like a [22:31] project with the SDLC [22:33] How do you deploy your application? How [22:35] do you package it? And even with [22:37] automated test. So I really felt like I [22:41] was my skills were leveling up. So [22:45] really thank you a lot. [22:50] >> You did have some programming courses at [22:53] the university though, right? So you [22:55] were not like a complete beginner. So [22:57] what do you think was the the most [22:58] important thing that was missing that [23:00] you got from the IT course? because at [23:02] this point you have like internship [23:05] experience so you're working at a proper [23:07] company you have gone this through these [23:09] challenging IT studies so what was it [23:12] that that was missing for you that it [23:14] course filled for you [23:16] >> I think that wasn't about programming in [23:18] itself like variables loops conditionals [23:23] functions I already knew that I think it [23:26] was like the whole process of SDLC like [23:30] okay there is a and development part, [23:33] the testing, packaging, you know, [23:36] deployment and the cycle continues. That [23:40] was really something that I learned that [23:42] was really good because you did continue [23:45] with another sprint. So there was the [23:47] first sprint. Uh I think we were [23:50] developing with like vanillajs [23:53] and then in the other sprint we were [23:56] like moving on to Vue.js JS and also we [24:00] were securing the database access with [24:03] envirs also that was one of the main [24:06] points and we were deploying again I [24:09] think yeah that there was like the link [24:11] between the front end and also the world [24:14] of the front end and the back end like [24:16] okay the front end is the the UI and [24:19] that is like fetching like communicating [24:22] with the back end and the back end is [24:24] dealing with the database for storing [24:26] data that was kind of the the links [24:29] between components of an application [24:32] also for automated tests already knew. [24:35] So that was not new but that was a good [24:37] thing to know about just about how to to [24:40] package an application that was really [24:42] like npm command npm pack or something [24:44] like that just to to package it into a [24:46] gzc also the deployment part in digital [24:50] ocean that was really a smart move from [24:52] you because digital ocean is like it's [24:55] not as scary as AWS or Asure so just to [24:59] start it was really a good choice the [25:02] missing part and something I I think you [25:05] did that on purpose. It was because all [25:08] those steps where we move from one step [25:11] to another in the SELC was manual. So I [25:15] was thinking can we just automate it? I [25:18] was thinking about CI/CD because I've [25:20] heard about it. My company was you know [25:23] the DevOps engineer that was working [25:25] with me. He was sometimes thinking about [25:27] CI/CD. So I didn't not know what that [25:31] was actually really about. But I was [25:34] thinking about it. So that was really a [25:36] smartphone from you. [25:38] >> It was definitely intentional because [25:39] the fact that you ask that question at [25:42] the end. The fact that we're like okay I [25:44] did all these things manually. So [25:46] actually it would be good to automate [25:47] exactly that question like when you have [25:49] that question it means you understand [25:51] why you're automating things instead of [25:53] just blindly because a lot of junior [25:55] engineers they start with automation but [25:58] they usually don't know why things are [25:59] automated because they just think that's [26:02] the default. So they never stop to [26:03] question underlying concepts. [26:05] >> Yeah, that was something that I remember [26:07] is that you said that at the end of this [26:10] course we are supposed to have even more [26:13] than like a just a junior software [26:15] engineer. I decided to because I thought [26:18] that I was about to take the nine weeks [26:21] of my linguistic stay just to do the IT [26:24] course but because I did that in three [26:27] four weeks I started to say to myself [26:31] okay let's move on to like the next part [26:38] I was asking myself do I want to like to [26:41] take 3 years to learn or do I want to [26:45] take few months [26:46] because I was also linguistics say I [26:49] started to to say to myself because I [26:52] want to move to DevOps but I knew that I [26:55] didn't have like the right skills. I did [26:57] the IT course fundamentals and I was [27:00] about to move on to the DevOps boot [27:02] camp. I was speaking about with by [27:05] message to the DevOps engineer at my [27:07] company that I want to speak with him [27:10] about my future that I was interested in [27:12] what he was doing because I felt some [27:15] that my skills were leveling up and I [27:18] said to myself, okay, now I can like [27:21] invest into this boot camp and then I'm [27:24] going to be able to move on to to [27:26] DevOps. What what was happening? you [27:28] know, I started to to speak with him [27:30] because he knew him that I was already [27:32] in the project that I had some basics. [27:34] He trusted me and I said to myself that [27:37] I cannot do a mistake. So I need to to [27:40] be good. So that was an investment. I'm [27:43] really following uh I think almost all [27:46] of your videos. So that's kind of [27:48] repetitive. But the thing that you are [27:50] saying is yeah okay do you want to [27:52] structure learning paths a relevant [27:55] person who you can trust to teach you [27:58] some skills in just a short period of [28:00] time and today because I think the [28:03] DevOps boot camp really helped me a lot [28:06] and it was more about the concept more [28:09] than the tools itself because we do not [28:11] really use the always the same tools at [28:14] the company but I was able to transfer [28:17] them from like Jenkins to GitLab that [28:21] was really easy. The DevOps engineer I [28:24] was working with him during the the last [28:26] year and he was confident about my [28:29] skills, my abilities to move on to a [28:32] permanent world. I think that uh if I [28:35] didn't do the DevOps boot camp, he would [28:37] just think, okay, he's motivated, but he [28:40] doesn't have like the required skills, [28:44] the required knowledge to move on to a [28:47] permanent role. And today I can say that [28:50] to to you I invested like yeah okay [28:53] maybe€1,5600 [28:57] but today uh without taxes at almost [29:01] like €3,000 [29:04] per month twice as much you know. So [29:07] >> in just one month. [29:08] >> Yeah. In just one month. So okay I [29:10] invested some money and I trusted you [29:13] and I was really happy about it. [29:15] Sometimes you've got to invest just to [29:17] make the like the learning time and the [29:21] also the quality of learning better. [29:23] >> It's so interesting because as I do like [29:25] analysis of of your perspective and [29:28] attitude in in general as you were [29:30] talking because you have acquired a lot [29:32] of skills at a young age and you are [29:34] also pretty far ahead in the career at [29:36] your young age. But it's actually very [29:38] logical because you're very careful [29:40] about who you're learning from and how [29:44] you save time during learning because [29:45] you don't want to waste like 3 years [29:47] from like you know putting together [29:49] resources and you are very cautious [29:51] about okay I may find this course or [29:54] this uh resource but you know is this am [29:56] I learning the right thing actually you [29:58] were very careful about finding the [30:00] right resources from the trusted sources [30:02] would rather invest money in order to [30:04] save time so that was like your [30:06] mentality [30:07] really interesting observation for me is [30:09] that you see this person that kind of [30:12] motiv that for you that was like I want [30:15] to do that. So you see you saw in real [30:17] life someone who was doing something [30:18] that you would like to do and then as [30:21] you go to him you're like okay I want to [30:23] actually level up within the the [30:25] company. I want to start doing that. You [30:27] could have also said I'm just going to [30:29] learn at work. I'm going to just buck [30:30] him and I'm going to, you know, use he [30:32] his knowledge to teach me. But you were [30:35] like, I'm going to use that, but also [30:36] I'm going to learn by myself to actually [30:38] fill those knowledge gaps and and [30:40] understand things conceptually. And that [30:42] probably like [30:44] >> not only doubled the speed of your [30:46] learning, but maybe like 10xed how fast [30:49] you learn because you had the hands-on [30:51] experience. So, you were learning in the [30:52] boot camp. You could apply that probably [30:54] at work right away. you could impress [30:56] him because then he was seeing okay he [30:58] learned from somewhere else other than [31:00] just me or work so he was probably [31:03] moving faster for you as well. [31:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Basically he was [31:07] so demanded even across projects not [31:10] only that project because he was so like [31:14] skillful like even in in hardware [31:17] concepts like we've got a lot of [31:18] hardware at Telus. So I couldn't like [31:21] ask him like thousand questions. uh he [31:25] wasn't here to teach me but just to [31:27] guide me through my task. You know [31:29] >> there's a line Amin said that I want to [31:32] underline here because it is the reason [31:35] that his switch actually worked. So the [31:38] value was not knowing this one specific [31:41] tool or another tool. It was actually [31:44] knowing and understanding the concepts [31:46] that helped him in the switch. So at [31:49] work he was using GitLab in the boot [31:51] camp. The CI/CD examples and demos ran [31:54] with Jenkins, different tool, same [31:58] underlying processes and concepts. So [32:00] moving from one to the other was, in his [32:04] words, really easy. And that's the whole [32:06] point because tools change between [32:09] companies, between teams, between IT [32:11] trends, sometimes between projects. So [32:14] if you memorized one tool, then you [32:17] start from zero every time you have to [32:20] change a tool. But if you understand why [32:23] a pipeline is built the way it is, if [32:25] you understand the underlying [32:27] fundamental concepts of infrastructure, [32:29] clusters, containers, then you can [32:32] easily pick up whatever tool is in front [32:34] of you that implements those concepts. [32:37] And that's also why his experienced [32:39] colleague trusted him with a permanent [32:42] role. It wasn't certificate or his [32:45] studies. it was that Amin could actually [32:48] reason and think about the systems that [32:50] he was building and his senior colleague [32:53] saw that. However, still reasoning about [32:56] systems and surviving real production [32:59] work and not messing up anything there [33:02] are still two different things. So the [33:04] question is once he got into the role, [33:07] what did that demanding senior colleague [33:10] actually throw at him? So let's look at [33:12] the hardest project Amin says he's ever [33:15] built. So what's was your DevOps [33:18] engineer colleague involved in? So [33:21] basically you made this level up within [33:23] the company, right? So you're an [33:25] apprenticeship who is doing like [33:27] automated testing and then you switched [33:29] to DevOps engineering. So how was that [33:32] jump actually for you? So basically the [33:35] first mission that I had with him was to [33:37] update the deployment installation and [33:39] and deployment guide of uh the the [33:42] project. Just after that because I was [33:44] in cyber security and I had to present [33:47] uh something the end of the the 3 years [33:50] I did uh penetration testing like [33:53] literally hacking. I was uh with Kali [33:55] Linux you know the penetration testing [33:57] DRO and even nowadays I not use Windows [34:01] anymore. I'm using daily a Kali Linux [34:04] like just to train myself with Linux [34:06] like how can I install something that is [34:08] not supposed to be installed like I I [34:11] really love that he just puts an [34:14] Ethernet cable to the server I didn't [34:17] have any IP address I it was plugged to [34:19] my computer with a Kalin and then okay [34:22] gone good luck the next part was we've [34:25] got some levels of confidentiality in [34:27] our project at Talis we need to be [34:29] careful and in case we've got to move [34:32] from Asia public cloud to a private [34:35] cloud. We had to do a puck, you know, [34:37] proof of concept. So to migrate all the [34:40] terraform configuration files, all the [34:42] pipelines from a public environment to a [34:46] private like air gap environment we were [34:49] using like VMware for virtualization. [34:53] So that was really a lot of stuff to do [34:55] like understand every package manager. [34:58] So apppt, npm, go, etc. and so on. App [35:02] for Alpine Linux. So that was really I [35:05] think the hardest CI/CD I've ever did in [35:09] my life. And at the end there was hand [35:11] five also. So I had to update [35:13] everything. And to be honest, it took a [35:16] lot of time, but I really felt that I [35:18] was leveling up my skills. And I did [35:20] didn't uh ask him a lot of question. [35:23] That was something that he was kind of [35:25] impressed because I did a lot of stuff [35:28] from the beginning with the IT [35:30] fundamentals course, the DevOps boot [35:32] camp, the GitLab course as well that I [35:35] used for a personal project with um one [35:38] of my like um classmates. I did a lot of [35:40] GitLab also. So I wasn't like starting [35:43] from zero. I think that was really [35:46] complicated to to implement. There was a [35:48] lot of debugging tasks. Especially one [35:51] thing that was really hard was to [35:53] compile a C++ project in an air gap [35:57] environment. That was absolutely [35:58] horrible because we were using CMake [36:01] like a meta builder with make and GCC [36:03] under the hood and also Conan package [36:05] management. So it was absolutely a [36:08] nightmare. I think that was really [36:10] something that helped me a lot. [36:16] So how was that jump actually for you? [36:18] Was he kind of involved in recommending [36:21] or giving you recommendation or who was [36:24] actually involved in you know helping [36:26] you make that promotion? [36:28] >> He was really like he because I was [36:31] talking with him a lot even before when [36:33] I was back then at the automation part. [36:36] So he knew me a lot that I was really [36:39] motivated because like I told you I did [36:41] a lot of efforts. I was uh really can I [36:44] say like autonomous in my tasks. Yeah. [36:47] >> Yeah. [36:47] >> He recommended me. Okay. I'm a motivated [36:51] guy. I'm capable. And the manager [36:54] trusted him word by word. When I was [36:57] doing the job interview with the [36:59] manager, he didn't ask me even a single [37:02] technical question. He was just trying [37:05] to know me. Okay. And that's it. I think [37:08] yeah he helped me out a lot about with [37:11] my kind of recommendation just to to [37:14] promote me to like a permanent role [37:17] that's [37:18] >> yeah so how was so it was not only [37:20] permanent role but it was a different [37:22] role actually right the title that you [37:24] liked better so how did it feel like for [37:26] you like did it feel like okay all this [37:28] time that I invested in learning paid [37:30] off I I feel super proud of myself how [37:32] was the feeling because you probably got [37:34] a like a salary jump probably like a [37:37] consider considerable one and then view [37:39] a title that matched way more to what [37:42] you want to do career-wise, right, than [37:45] the what you started out with. [37:47] >> Yeah, to be honest, I was like I was [37:50] somehow kind of scared at at the [37:53] beginning because the like the DevOps [37:56] engineer that I was working with uh he [37:59] was really you know confident. So I was [38:02] somehow scared but like I told you I've [38:04] seen worse in my life. So uh I can [38:07] manage pressure and at the end I was [38:10] like really happy like okay it's the end [38:14] of my not only the apprenticeship [38:16] journey but also like in my entire life [38:19] something that I realized is that I was [38:22] uh learning since uh kindergarten you [38:25] know and during like 20 years this is [38:28] the end so I was kind of like amazed [38:32] about really all the all that I did. [38:35] Okay, I decided to to take the risk to [38:38] change, you know, and I was it was maybe [38:42] the first time that I did that. I could [38:44] say to myself, I need to wait for the [38:48] right moment, you know, like a lot of [38:50] people are uh believing. Uh but I said [38:54] to myself, uh okay, it's right now. I [38:57] want at the end I don't want to wait [39:00] like many years to go to the place that [39:04] I want to be. I'm going to uh I want to [39:07] to do that even during my even during my [39:11] studies. So I didn't want to to wait and [39:14] I had time also because it was really [39:16] hard to manage but I had some with the [39:18] linguistics day like I told you. So [39:21] yeah, at the at the end I said, "Okay, [39:24] sometimes you need to take the risk even [39:28] if it feels kind of scary, but yeah, I I [39:32] decided to." [39:33] >> Yeah. [39:34] >> What were you scared of? [39:35] >> To be honest, I was scared because I was [39:38] in a contract with automation engineer. [39:41] I was scared of okay, are they going to [39:44] take it in a good way that I want to [39:46] change? Because sometimes they can take [39:48] it like very badly. you were supposed to [39:50] do three years and now you are doing [39:53] just just three two three two three two [39:54] three two three two three two three two [39:54] three two three two three two three two [39:54] three years I was scared of that somehow [39:57] and also because the DevOps engineer [40:00] that I was about to work with he was [40:02] kind of demanding he was kind with me [40:05] but I couldn't like just pretend that I [40:08] know maybe I was able to do that for [40:11] other people but with him it was not [40:13] possible [40:14] >> so you were scared that you would not [40:16] meet his expectations basically right [40:19] >> and you [40:20] technically like failed to do some of [40:22] the tasks. [40:23] >> Was that also one of the motivations why [40:25] you did DevOps boot camp because you [40:27] wanted to kind of make sure that you [40:28] actually fulfilled his expectations? [40:30] >> Absolutely. And to be honest, if I [40:32] didn't do the DevOps boot camp, I think [40:35] it's it wouldn't be possible like kind [40:38] of to impress him with my knowledge, [40:40] with my technical skills. And he was [40:42] also impressed about everything that I [40:45] was that I did. It it was really hard [40:48] even during my pay vacations to be [40:51] honest with you. I didn't socialize a [40:53] lot. I didn't play a lot of video games. [40:56] I took that for for learning. So I said [41:00] to myself, okay, it just maybe a short [41:03] period of time like just few months. [41:05] Okay, I'm going to like sacrifice that [41:08] period of time just to be sure that I [41:11] have at least like the bare minimum to [41:14] meet his expectations in my specific [41:17] track in computer network and security. [41:19] We've got to have at least one technical [41:22] certification. We've got to have like [41:25] the volater certificate as well for [41:28] French, you know, just to have a [41:29] professional level. We've got to have [41:31] the TOEIC for English and we've got also [41:35] to have a technical uh certification and [41:38] that's why I decided to have we were [41:41] encouraged to do Cisco certifications [41:44] like CCNA you know those types of stuff [41:47] I decided to do the DevOps boot camp [41:49] because it was also helping me helping [41:51] me with the with the job helping me with [41:53] with the school just to validate. Yeah, [41:56] we were about 70 students and I was the [41:59] first who managed to validate the um [42:02] like the international mobility now with [42:05] the linguistics day the tawi the volt [42:08] certificates and the technical [42:10] certification I was the first so [42:12] >> wow okay wow amazing [42:14] >> amazing yeah and [42:16] >> really cool so you use the the digital [42:18] badge from DevOps boot camp as a [42:20] technical certificate for [42:22] >> yeah I sent it to the kind of the [42:25] supervisor advisor of the track in [42:27] computer network and security and to be [42:29] honest something that I wanted to share [42:31] you is that I was like I told you I was [42:34] really bad in English one sentence that [42:36] you've said is that you were not able [42:38] like to to like just to conjugate like [42:42] just just a word just just a verb with [42:44] the like he plays you were not able okay [42:48] I I trust you word by word but nowadays [42:51] you are like you've got really an [42:53] amazing English to be honest with you. [42:56] >> It's really like it's not really like [42:59] really fast. It's you've got kind of a [43:02] precise vocabulary. It's not really [43:04] fast, not really slow. So, it's really [43:06] easy to understand even for a non-native [43:09] speaker like me. And to be honest, I was [43:12] also scared about English because it was [43:15] feeling kind of scary, you know, just to [43:18] speak another language, just to have the [43:20] shame of other classmate that okay, he's [43:23] not able to just stick with basic [43:25] English in my life. To be honest, some [43:28] teachers were like sometimes kind of [43:31] harsh. So that was not really good for [43:34] being motivated. And one teacher, she [43:37] almost thought that there was two [43:40] students in the class. Me and another [43:42] one like at the beginning of each class, [43:44] okay, me and this guy. Okay, always this [43:47] was kind of scary, but I decided to to [43:50] move to something else, okay, to forget [43:52] about all the bad stuff. And I was kind [43:55] of a B1 level and I needed to have a B2 [43:58] level and to just to earn my engineering [44:02] degree. I was asking myself how can I [44:05] solve this problem of not being good in [44:08] English. I decided to to speak with the [44:10] DevOps engineer again. He's everywhere. [44:13] He is also very good in English like [44:15] perhaps not in speaking like used [44:18] dayto-day to speak in English but he was [44:21] also very good and he told to me that he [44:24] was at the same level as I was like just [44:27] saying hello and like thank you and [44:30] goodbye and that's it. And even in [44:32] France, we are terrible in English. Even [44:35] though we do not have any excuses [44:37] because like almost onethird of English [44:40] is French and one other third is Latin. [44:43] So we do not have any excuses. So I [44:46] spoke to him and he was saying to me, [44:49] okay, because I was playing video games [44:52] in English back then, but he told me [44:54] that it was not sufficient. I had to [44:56] watch videos in English. And I started [44:59] to say to myself, okay, I'm going to to [45:02] put like drastic measures. I'm going to [45:04] put my everyday life in English like [45:06] from almost zero to 100%. Like playing [45:10] video games in English, watch stuff in [45:12] English. Just in few months, I had the [45:15] toic I had the the B2 level. I needed to [45:18] have 785 [45:20] out of 990 and I had 795 like just just [45:25] the minimum. Yeah. [45:26] >> Yeah. But but still in a in a short time [45:30] actually. So one thing that I also think [45:33] about is and also what I noticed with [45:36] you a lot of people do not do let's say [45:40] DevOps DevOps boot camp is a good [45:42] example because it's not like a course [45:43] you can do on a weekend right like you [45:45] need to invest time like it it is a [45:47] commitment not only financially but of [45:49] your time like you need to make sure [45:51] that like some of the project you're [45:53] building it over weeks sometimes not [45:55] just days. So one thing that people [45:58] hesitate about in you know before [46:01] enrolling in such a training is not the [46:03] financial investment it's actually that [46:07] they don't believe that they will be [46:09] able to learn like they don't have [46:11] selfrust or self-belief of you know what [46:14] I trust myself to learn challenging [46:17] things I trust myself to not give up [46:19] when the project gets more difficult [46:21] >> but what I see with you is [46:24] >> like whether it's like learning English [46:26] or devil's boot camp or generally like [46:28] at work [46:29] >> you have this self-belief that you can [46:32] learn difficult things like it's going [46:34] to be difficult but you believe in your [46:36] ability to learn these things. [46:42] >> Yeah. One more thing I want to I wanted [46:44] to ask you because you're one of the few [46:46] people I think you have literally done [46:49] every single one of our trainings that [46:51] we have. You've done the IT course, IT [46:54] fundamentals, devos boot camp, GitLab, [46:57] CKA, and Dev Sec. So, I got to ask you, [47:00] first of all, you did all of these. You [47:03] didn't have like a free time like a [47:05] blank calendar where you could just do [47:07] this. You were working at the time [47:09] full-time, right? You were a student. [47:11] So, tell me about your time management. [47:14] How did you manage to learn also in a [47:17] pretty short amount of time, right? So [47:19] you didn't just stretch it out to like [47:21] years or so. [47:22] >> How did you manage your time? What was [47:24] challenging? Because I'm sure it wasn't [47:25] easy. Tell me about that. [47:26] >> Yeah. About time management, I think [47:29] I've been kind of fortunate the [47:33] linguistic stay. I did have a lot of [47:34] free time. I think also I studying [47:38] during my paid vacations also, but [47:41] nowadays I do not have a lot of paid [47:43] vacation because I moved to one contract [47:46] to another. I'm currently studying a [47:48] lot. I have a very strict kind of [47:51] schedule. The morning I'm learning and [47:54] reading articles on try hackme for cyber [47:57] security and maybe there are some [47:59] practical tasks that cannot do in the [48:02] public transports. I'm going to spend 30 [48:05] more minutes at the end of the day no [48:07] matter what. No. And at the end because [48:10] uh I'm really far from my company maybe [48:13] 1 hour and a half in the public [48:15] transport. So we got I've got a lot of [48:17] time. So the morning is for cyber [48:19] security. Uh the afternoon for learning [48:22] currently I managed to do all of your [48:25] courses and boot camps. So I've decided [48:27] to move to something else like to learn [48:29] about hardware and operating system [48:31] concepts. So basically about time [48:34] management I had kind of a strict [48:36] schedule in even on weekends for example [48:40] I can like put just a schedule okay for [48:42] during the morning from 10:00 a.m. to [48:45] noon I'm going to learn I'm going to [48:47] practice or maybe during the afternoon [48:50] from 2:00 p.m. to like 6:00 p.m. I've [48:53] got I've got to work. So I've got kind [48:56] of a strict schedule. One thing also [48:58] because I'm still living with my parents [49:01] so they are we are kind of sharing you [49:03] know the kind of tasks that are taking a [49:07] lot of time like cooking doing the [49:09] laundry I've remembered that you [49:12] absolutely hate to cook. Personally I [49:14] like to cook but when I've got the time [49:17] when I've got some tasks to do it takes [49:20] like a huge amount of time. I've got to [49:22] have like a strict schedule. So I'm [49:25] basically planning in advance. So, okay, [49:27] I'm going to spend some time like just [49:30] 20 minutes for cooking and like 20 more [49:34] minutes for eating is like like I told [49:37] you before I'm like like like a clock. [49:39] Some people are kind of scared or Yeah. [49:42] Okay. It is very bizarre, you know, but [49:45] I feel kind of normal just to like just [49:47] to schedule my day. So, I I absolutely [49:50] hate to to waste any time. So, yeah, [49:53] about time management. That answers to [49:55] your question right? [49:56] >> Uh it does actually I feel same way [49:59] because I think that when I do not [50:02] schedule things and when I don't have [50:04] structure in my day I get way less [50:06] things done including not just the [50:08] productive things but less of the [50:10] enjoyable things you know like I [50:12] actually enjoy time way less if I don't [50:15] have structure because then you know you [50:17] just waste your time in in meaningless [50:19] stuff when you don't have like a [50:21] intentional plan throughout the day. So [50:24] it seems like you're also one of the [50:26] people who says, you know what, I want [50:27] to make the most out of every single [50:29] day, whether it's productive or spending [50:31] time with my family and doing something [50:33] that I enjoy. It gives you that sense of [50:36] fulfillment. [50:37] >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know that you [50:39] love to have kind of deep work sessions. [50:43] I know. So to have like a specific uh [50:46] time period, the time slots where okay, [50:49] you focus on work and nothing else. So [50:52] that helps a lot. [50:58] And maybe the other question that you've [51:01] had is about dealing with challenging [51:04] stuff because nowadays I've got strong [51:07] kind of basics. To be honest, the first [51:09] time that I learned Kubernetes, you [51:12] actually made it simple, but I felt like [51:15] okay, there's a lot of things. So during [51:19] like just 3 seconds I started to doubt [51:23] myself like okay it's absolutely scary [51:25] but I reminded myself okay if I want to [51:29] break into DevOps if I want to have this [51:31] role where you can do a lot of things [51:34] because one of the main advantages of [51:36] DevOps is you are not supposed to do one [51:40] single task uh every single day. So the [51:43] the task are really broad that's [51:45] something that I love. So I'm not [51:48] focused on just like just automated test [51:51] or just developing a function in [51:54] programming. I can work more with [51:56] concepts. One thing that I really love I [51:59] was asking myself what do I love in [52:01] engineering and it's a complicated [52:03] question. Basically I love about knowing [52:06] a lot of different things like to have a [52:08] general culture and also to learn how [52:11] things work. I'm not like focused on [52:14] just a specific stuff. I can work with [52:16] software developers. I can work with [52:18] different engineers. I can work with [52:21] cloud infrastructure as code with [52:22] networking with cyber security also as [52:25] well because I got I've got a lot of [52:27] background in it. Dealing with [52:28] challenging stuff is like you've got to [52:31] ask yourself will it pay off at some [52:33] points? So what is the result kind of [52:36] the recompense that I will get? Is it [52:39] worth it? Okay, if it's worth it yeah [52:42] I'm I'm going to do it. I was seeing [52:44] this DevOps role as kind of a a dream [52:47] role. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to be able [52:49] to work with different technology. Wow. [52:51] It's absolutely amazing. Also, the the [52:54] salary for example, that's also [52:56] something that really motivates a lot. [52:59] Basically, that's the finish line that [53:01] motivates to continue. Today, I've built [53:03] this mantle, you know, just to to not [53:06] give up. And today, it's just like [53:08] normal. Okay. I've got an error in like [53:11] I've triggered the the the pipeline. [53:14] Okay. I've got an error. It's just [53:16] normal stuff just to search to to try to [53:18] find the solution. [53:20] >> So yeah, it's more about the goal. [53:22] >> Yeah, because you've done it so many [53:23] times that it it just became like a [53:25] second nature to you probably. Yeah. [53:27] Just one thing maybe you remember like [53:30] specific moments because I found it [53:33] interesting. You mentioned that you said [53:35] in the email actually that like when you [53:37] were doing DevOps boot camp specifically [53:39] you would do like 15 hours on the [53:41] weekends in learning sessions. When [53:44] you're doing something that you already [53:45] know then 15 hours is not a lot. [53:47] Especially as engineers when we enjoy [53:49] our work we you know you get into this [53:51] flow mode. But when you're learning [53:53] something new, you like 15 hours of [53:56] learning and practicing something new. [53:58] So did you have moments where you were [54:00] like oh my god like this is too much and [54:03] this probably happened on many weekends [54:05] not just one [54:06] >> and you know this is too overwhelming [54:08] but then you had this moment of you know [54:10] what this is still worth it. What was [54:12] the moment the process for you or the [54:14] thought process? you are right now. I [54:16] remember that I said that I sometimes I [54:19] was working like long hours during [54:21] weekend because I do not I prefer like [54:24] long wage sessions and not like [54:27] scattered learning dur during the week. [54:29] Yeah, it was difficult. It was sometimes [54:32] I felt like it was too much. But to to [54:35] be honest, I told to myself, do I want [54:37] to spend like okay six months or uh [54:42] maybe less and then okay I'm going to be [54:45] able to move to something else after. So [54:49] just about the speed and the amount of [54:51] time that I was spending on weekends. I [54:53] was seeing like the finish line. I [54:56] didn't want just to to do the the demo [54:59] and that's it. I forget like fire and [55:01] forget you know I wanted to also to [55:04] learn everything so maybe I was kind of [55:07] used to it like the DevOps boot camp so [55:10] the dev sec ops boot camp was kind of [55:12] easy easier and also with with the [55:14] DevOps boot camp I was also uh during my [55:17] vacations I was doing maybe sometimes [55:20] six to seven hours per day like during [55:23] continuous like during two weeks [55:26] straight so that was a lot uh during the [55:29] devils boot camp. I told to myself, I do [55:31] not have the choice. I must be prepared [55:35] for not only the role at the company [55:38] that I will have because one thing that [55:40] helped me is because it was in 2024 that [55:44] I decided to to break into DevOps. I [55:47] bought the DevOps boot camp maybe during [55:49] during July if I remember well and just [55:52] after the linguistic stay or just there [55:55] was some paid vacations and then 6 [55:58] months of school generally when we are [56:01] doing apprenticeship we've got some like [56:04] one week at the company one week at the [56:07] school but this time I had like six [56:10] months that was an opportunity for [56:11] myself just to focus on that one thing [56:14] that was really like really difficult is [56:16] also I told to myself I need to learn [56:20] also during paid vacations because I [56:22] won't have the time during the school [56:24] period basically I was kind of under [56:27] pressure and that was one of the main [56:29] motivation for during DevOps boot camp [56:32] and for def boot camp because I uh [56:35] finished you know the this call so it [56:37] was over [56:38] >> so one thing that I'm curious about [56:40] because you have a lot of discipline [56:41] like you you know like this is the [56:43] finish line like this motivates me [56:45] because like that's what I need to do in [56:47] order to achieve my goal. What was the [56:49] enjoyable parts of it? Like did you [56:51] actually enjoy some of the parts of like [56:54] did you have small wins where like oh my [56:56] god yes my CI/CD pipeline works or oh my [56:58] god I finally understood this concept it [57:00] finally clicked. What were the good [57:02] parts so to say not the challenging [57:04] ones? Yeah, the challenging part was [57:06] during debugging but at the end when I [57:09] was like deploying a web application on [57:12] the reachable for everyone I was really [57:15] happy to to show that to people [57:17] especially like the juice shop I was [57:20] speaking with my family okay if you want [57:22] to order some juice come by here and [57:25] they were asking me yeah how how did you [57:27] do that they were kind of impressed also [57:30] I won't even say that's it's a small win [57:32] for me each win is somehow a big win, [57:35] you know. So, I really appreciate about [57:38] understanding the concepts. Also, Argo [57:40] CD, I've heard a lot about it. There was [57:42] like lot of different technologies that [57:45] were were really, you know, trendy. I'm [57:47] really curious in my life. So, I love to [57:52] understand how things work. I was really [57:54] happy to like to have a complete [57:56] automated like a CI/CD pipeline, you [57:59] know. Okay, it works. I've got the the [58:01] whole project the whole workflow that is [58:04] working fine and at the end of the day [58:06] when it was sometimes like really late [58:09] during the day okay I was really happy I [58:11] learn how things work because sometimes [58:14] asking AI for example there is uh [58:17] something that I didn't understand [58:20] because sometimes there is a bug you [58:22] know and I want to understand not only [58:24] the solution but why does it work and [58:27] also why a configuration okay there [58:30] there's no bug in it. Why it works and [58:32] why it doesn't. I'm really curious about [58:34] understanding everything like and also [58:36] one thing that really impressed me [58:38] because you were moving from uh in the [58:41] Deos secops boot camp you were moving [58:43] from absolutely not secure stuff just to [58:46] show us okay this is the bad practice [58:49] because we need to know about bad [58:51] practices before moving on to kind of [58:54] the good practices. I was really [58:56] impressed that at the end uh with the [58:58] juice shop we were using AWS SSM instead [59:03] of storing secrets. So I was really [59:05] impressed you know we were able to to [59:07] use SSM because we were having the [59:10] GitLab runner uh in the AWS accounts. [59:13] >> So that was and we were using AM ROS [59:16] really I remember. Okay. Also the I OIDC [59:21] you know uh the later part with [59:24] infrastructure as code instead of [59:26] storing passwords directly we were not [59:29] storing anything and I was really [59:30] impressed by like the level of security [59:33] that we are putting into the dev secops [59:36] boot camp during this period of sound. [59:38] >> So you were a junior DevOps engineer you [59:41] did DevOps boot camp. Your extremely [59:43] experienced colleague is impressed by [59:45] your work. you feel good about your [59:47] knowledge and then you decide to do dev [59:49] sec ops boot camp as well which is [59:51] another financial commitment which is [59:53] another time commitment why did you [59:55] decide to do that [59:56] >> at the beginning I'm really curious and [59:58] I think that an engineer is like a [60:00] flower if you don't put water if you [60:02] don't put like sunbeams it's going to [60:04] die so an engineer who doesn't learn [60:07] anymore is like a dead flower you know I [60:10] don't necessarily have to learn like [60:13] 100% of my time I feel like I need to [60:17] continue to upskill my knowledge not [60:19] only just for salaries even though it's [60:22] good but also to feel good at work. [60:24] >> In your opinion, what was the biggest [60:26] value that you got like practical value [60:28] you got out of it in addition to you [60:30] know learning new things and fulfilling [60:32] your curiosity about the technologies [60:34] and how things work. [60:35] >> I think it's more about the concept of [60:39] securing every layer like defense in [60:42] depths you know. So in each step we are [60:46] putting a layer of security that's [60:47] something that really loved and that are [60:50] really understood even more and in terms [60:53] of practical skills I think it's about [60:56] GitHubs you know just to have like I [60:59] don't push but I pull the changes I do [61:02] not manage like the the pushbased [61:05] deployment so I managed before the [61:07] pullbased deployment and now it's over [61:09] it's settled you know [61:14] I actually have two final questions for [61:16] you which is going to be addressing more [61:18] of the community because I am sure that [61:20] we have a lot of people in the community [61:22] who will associate more with you. Maybe [61:24] they're like junior engineers, maybe [61:27] they're students, maybe there are people [61:29] who are just getting started into DevOps [61:31] and that probably will be majority of [61:34] people. Imagine someone who is literally [61:36] just, you know, they're they're a [61:38] student or they're a junior engineer and [61:40] they're sitting at their desk and [61:41] they're worried and afraid of, oh my [61:44] god, I have to learn all these things in [61:46] order future proof my career. My career [61:48] is in danger because of AI and because [61:51] of the skills that I don't have [61:53] currently. Is this even worth to invest [61:55] all these time and effort in learning [61:58] these skills? When is it going to pay [61:59] off? And all these doubts and [62:01] hesitations in their head. What would [62:02] you say to them? Basically, one thing is [62:05] that an engineer, the mindset of an [62:08] engineer is to be good at what he is [62:10] doing. So, we've got to learn and [62:13] somehow appreciate to learn some new [62:15] skills in order to to be better. And for [62:18] example, one thing is that some people [62:22] are trying, you know, but they are [62:24] trying the wrong way, you know, some [62:27] people who who are not even trying, some [62:29] people who are trying the wrong way. In [62:31] that I mean that people are just kind of [62:34] giving up and that's really really bad [62:36] because maybe they don't have like a [62:39] very good reason to to just just to to [62:42] give up and for people who are trying [62:44] they are putting like in their CVs the [62:47] same skills the same keywords okay just [62:50] networking but what can you do with [62:52] networking okay terraform but what did [62:54] you do I think they are trying the wrong [62:56] way because personally in my CV I do not [63:00] have a skill section because the skills [63:03] that I have they should be clear with my [63:05] professional experience with my personal [63:08] or study like school projects it's [63:11] really clear for a recruiter just to to [63:14] see like okay you did that at work you [63:17] did that uh you you did those project [63:20] because one project that I did with one [63:23] of my classmates like develop a web [63:25] application just to store images on an [63:28] S3 buckets on AWS the developer part and [63:32] I didn't touch like almost just a single [63:35] line of code and I did all the [63:37] infrastructure the Kubernetes parts [63:39] GitLab and so on. So I did I put that on [63:42] my CV. We must try kind of the right way [63:46] and also people perhaps they are not [63:50] motivated because it feels kind of [63:52] scary. they don't seem capable. But most [63:55] of the time to be honest, I think it's [63:58] more about like laziness. It's okay, [64:01] school is over now. I got my degree and [64:04] that's it. Okay, I'm ready for work. But [64:07] that's not the mindset personally that I [64:09] had. For me, like I did the analogy with [64:13] a flower. A flower is like an engineer. [64:15] If you do not like put water or put [64:18] sunbeams, you know, the flower will be [64:21] dead. So if we are not continuously [64:24] learning it's the beginning of the end [64:26] you know uh we've got the that [64:28] expression in France the beginning of [64:29] the end basically I think it's more [64:32] about laziness they need kind of to [64:34] realize that okay if you do not do [64:37] something it's not going to knock at [64:40] your door and say hey I want to hire you [64:43] you know you need to show your skills [64:45] your projects on LinkedIn on medium on [64:49] GitHub it's not about just showing off. [64:51] People could be scared about okay I'm [64:53] just going to show off supposed to be [64:55] bad but no you are basically like [64:57] showing people okay you do this and that [65:01] you are somehow teaching also other [65:03] people okay I did have that problem this [65:07] is how I I overcome it you know yeah [65:10] that's it [65:10] >> 100% absolutely does answer [65:16] >> I know that a lot of people who are [65:19] juniors who are again like maybe IT [65:21] students and they want to kind of get [65:23] their first steps into it. they will [65:25] look at you and feel like you know what [65:28] I'm not that motivated as Amin is like [65:30] where does this guy get his motivation [65:32] to actually keep learning to keep [65:34] through those challenges to not quit [65:36] when things go wrong or you know takes [65:39] the risk you know when he's offered a [65:41] job which is scary how would you [65:44] transfer or explain to them how to get [65:46] the same level of motivation as you have [65:48] >> maybe if I I like to take time to think [65:51] about maybe if I do not have like all [65:53] the answers maybe I'm going I reach to [65:55] you maybe later if I feel like I've [65:57] missed something. When I was a teenager, [66:00] I was happy to learn because I was [66:03] speaking with geeky nerd like uh you [66:05] know I was kind of influenced but I was [66:09] happy to show to other people. Okay, I [66:11] did some programming. Okay, that's it. [66:13] But I was kind of lazy back then. Maybe [66:17] it's about taking a go. What do I want [66:19] to to do like with my life? Why do I [66:22] want to do it? Okay, engineer. In my [66:25] case, that sounded like, okay, good [66:27] role. I like that. I like programming. I [66:29] like technical stuff. Okay, I needed [66:32] like to put a goal to say to myself, why [66:34] would I do that? Okay, because I like [66:36] that. Okay, after that, you've got to [66:38] remember to remind yourself this is why [66:41] I'm doing it. I think that's the main [66:43] reason. The why is like really [66:45] important. Then there is a how a what [66:47] good salary a dream job where you get to [66:51] learn a lot of to you like to work with [66:54] different text tags to be good at what [66:56] you are doing then you've put the why [66:59] and then when you know exactly why you [67:02] are doing it you decided to to think [67:05] about the how how can I go to this place [67:08] yeah I really wanted to be an engineer [67:10] like few years later now I am so I'm [67:13] happy about it I decided to put the goal [67:15] and not giving up even though sometimes [67:17] it was really hard because one thing [67:19] that I didn't tell you is that I was [67:22] kind of a class representative. So I had [67:25] apprenticeship, I had my personal life, [67:27] I had like class representative, I had [67:30] the boot camps, I had like multiple [67:32] things and people would Yeah. How how [67:35] did you manage to do that at once? It [67:37] was sometimes really hard even to to [67:40] manage all all of that because like my [67:42] discord account was really often [67:44] fulfilled with message okay this and [67:46] that can you teach me this can you teach [67:48] me this okay there is a problem with [67:50] that teacher there is this problem okay [67:53] you basically to come back to to what I [67:56] say it's just look what do you want why [67:59] and how I think that's it maybe there [68:00] are other stuff I'm going to think about [68:02] it perhaps I miss something that's a [68:05] good question that I don't always ask me [68:07] those question like very precisely but I [68:11] you are right to do so [68:12] >> it is clear because I think when you are [68:16] driven or when your decisions are based [68:18] on fear of oh my god what is the most re [68:21] like safe way to make the next step that [68:24] is usually not motivating because you [68:27] are just trying to avoid something which [68:29] is making you anxious but when you put [68:31] the goal on the other side instead of [68:33] some fear or some some anxious thing and [68:35] you say Hey, you found something that [68:38] you wanted to do and that intrinsically [68:40] motivated you to do all this stuff. So [68:42] even when things got too much and [68:43] challenging with the school and work and [68:46] learning and everything, you were like, [68:47] "Okay, this is challenging and this is [68:49] difficult, but I know why I'm doing it. [68:51] So I'm just going to persevere through [68:52] today, through tomorrow. So even if I [68:54] cannot do everything perfectly and if I [68:56] cannot give everything full attention, [68:59] I'm still making progress towards the [69:01] goal that I want to achieve so much." So [69:03] that gives you like this inner [69:05] fulfillment that your day was [69:06] productive, that your life is going in [69:07] the right direction versus just trying [69:10] to avoid something that you fear that is [69:12] going to happen. So, I love that [69:14] perspective.