I went through a layoff actually the previous year we bought a new home, new car and we settled. At that time it was very difficult because uh I'm on H&B visa here. So we have to find a job within 60 days. Everyone will take the gym membership on the first day of January. But after 1 week they not go there right personally I spend good amount of money every year to learn something new. I set that budget every year starting off every year. So why not spend more money in building your own career? People will trust you when you show something, not when you say I know something. So try to prove by doing something because we cannot always complain about the problem. We need to give the solution to the problem. I was in Florida in Disneyland and I got a email from Docker team. Today I'm going to share with you an interview with Joseph who has an incredibly inspiring story into tech. He's been in tech for close to 20 years. He started as an engineer in India, worked his way through roles in Oman, and eventually landed in Austin, Texas, which is considered a hot spot for tech and tech startups right now. And currently, he's a manager of cyber security engineering at PayPal, one of the biggest companies in the world. Now, when Joseph joined our dev sec boot camp, he was already deep in the tech field. He already had the experience. So what I find inspiring is not the career switch before, but it's the fact that someone at that level still chose to come back and do structured learning. And on top of his day job, he actually became both an AWS community builder and a Docker captain. He hasn't stopped learning even with a pretty established career already. So today we dig into what keeps a senior engineer hungry to keep learning, how that actually shows up in the real work at a company like PayPal and what the journey looked like from the inside all the way from India to Austin, Texas. And because Joseph sits at the intersection of DevOps, security, and AI, I also asked him the question a lot of you are sitting with right now, which is, is AI going to take over IT jobs, including DevOps, and is it actually worth learning DevOps and devsops when AI might change everything anyways? And his answer comes from someone who is building AI powered security systems at PayPal right now. So it's worth to stay until the end to hear her thoughts and perspective. So let's get to it. So Joseph, welcome. I'm really glad that you are here. >> Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, Nana. Thank you so much for this opportunity as well. I wanted to thank Nikoli as well as she is a primary role in this tech with Bana program and the company. I'm Joseph. Currently I live in Austin, Texas. Originally from India. I started my career in India in a consulting company. So I was doing uh when in my first job I used my job was to hand over the CDs uh with license printed in it. Right? If you know MSDN CDs and others in in the past I used to hand over the CDs to the people who wants to install the software in their motherboard to test the new hardware and other things. So in my free time I used to write some Java code and other things to build some web apps. So one of my manager's friend came to my desk one day and he saw what I'm doing and he asked me like why don't you come to my team and do something cool. We got a new project. So he pulled me into the job. That was my first change in my career. Uh I was a business intelligence developer in SSR side. I was working for a leading bank in India and then it's uh it I was there for a couple of years and then I moved to Gulf that gave me a lot of great opportunities to work with banking customers and minister of defense, minister of housing, finance, lot of government sectors and oil and gas industries which helped me to improve my skills in uh in the space of SharePoint and then I came back to Bangalore again uh I worked for semiconductor company again through a consulting company for a couple of years. Then in 2013 I came to Austin. It was uh it was great. Uh for a couple of years I worked there and then I moved to Broadcom. Uh previously the company name was called CA uh technologies. It was accured by Broadcom. In 2018 I I went through a layoff actually. In May 2018 I went through a layoff. The previous year we bought a new home, new car and we settled. We thought life is settled and everything is going good. But until 2018 I was stuck with a specific stack. So when I try to search for jobs at that time it was very difficult because uh I'm on uh HMBB visa here. So we had to find a job within 60 days. So the time is very short. I got some offers but it was bit delayed. So I was forced to go back to India for some time. So during the time I was praying about it what to do and all all those things and I decided okay now is the time to switch uh carrier into a new thing because switching to a new field or new track is not something new for me. I have been doing that. So but at the same time I want to choose the right track. So that's when I decided to choose cloud and devops. I started uh watching different videos and other things but I got some offer in the from the US company and then I came back in 2018. That's when I slowly started learning about other uh stacks. Uh for example, I was so into Azure and Microsoft stack and then I started uh learning about other things. So first thing when I started about DevOps the basics like so Linux networking and docker so that's these are the important topics I need to learn. That's when I found your video for the very first time. I think 6 years ago I guess that was uh the time I saw your video. First I was going through all your free videos uh and I started learning about other things like AWS, Docker, Kubernetes and everything in and out from your post. Then I switched to uh beta. So here right now I'm in the cyber security. These days I'm focusing on automation, AI, deops. Yeah. So these are all the areas I'm working. >> So let me zoom in and few. So this is a really interesting story but it's super in a nutshell. So I'm pretty sure there are some exciting interesting details in there. So let me let me zoom in into a few parts. So first of all do you remember your very first steps into the IT or tech field? How old were you? Uh how was it transition for you? It is a new field. It is a new career. Like what were the challenges? What was your vision? Like did you know exactly your future plan? how you were going to kind of settle yourself into the IT field or just take me back to the very first steps into IT. >> Yeah. So after um my college days like so I was searching for some job. So it took some time for me to find a good job. So in between uh couple of my relatives said like okay why don't you join our relatives company which was a sim card manufacturing company. It was a a monopoly I will say it is like a single company in the India which was producing a lot of SIM cards and credit cards. So I was there for a couple of months. The problem what I faces is my dream was to go to a software industry side but I was doing something different there. So I was not very happy about it but still I wanted to give my 100%age in my work. So I was continuing to do that. But uh when I got this opportunity to interview for uh my first job, I was so excited. So I told my previous company that I'm uh joining this company and they blessed me and asked me to join there. So when I first joined uh it was my first job and it is like I need to learn from the leaders and spend a lot of time in uh learning. So uh I love to wake up in the early morning from my childhood. So that is that played a key role. So I used to learn every day even today uh at least 0.01 01% is I learn every day uh something about new new things right so that helped me uh in the early stages um learning from others played a major role so I always seek after people like what they are doing why they are different why they they are very influential in the company and all those things I I used to look after and I'll try to mimic or try to do things what they are doing right so that's how uh I learned especially uh in my day-to-day works. Yeah. [music] >> And you also mentioned so you switched your job into Gulf area where you working for a bank and in government sector then you also find a job found a job in Austin, Texas. It sounds easy but we we also have a lot of Indian students or a lot of students who uh find it difficult to find jobs outside their countries. So what what do you think was the main challenge and how do you think you handled it or you managed to basically find a new job opportunity outside the country in the Gulf area uh find an opportunity in US Austin Texas. So what what was the what was the challenge and also in your view the most important element of why you succeeded in that? >> Yeah definitely the um moving part of Gulp is kind of a funny story. So I got my passport during my college time and I didn't use it for for anything right. So I was working for the consulting company. One day I was on the way back home going back home and I got a call from a health number about a job recommend but first I did not even believe that I thought it is like it's a spam call. So I disconnected it and then they called me again and say that I said that like it's a real job you have to trust this. Then uh I started inquiring about their company and then I was going through a couple of interviews. First job itself I was away from my home. So moving to a new country and other things I like it but at the same time uh it's a first international trip. So as soon as I landed I really missed my family. I started crying did did I make any mistake there [laughter] like so it was a good job. I was in a very good job. So I moved to Gulf. So that was very difficult staying away from family and then it's like again the culture and the way they work is completely different than other sectors right so I really like that place uh Oman is a great place to work and the customers I worked with and there are a lot of learnings because it's a different industry also uh regulations and other things which I learned from there I had very good managers and friends there uh to learn from each other in my school we used to have a moto be first and be with the first. That moto I apply everywhere wherever I go. I try to be first but otherwise I will try to be with the people who are first in the industry or learn from them. Right? So learning is very important before you become first. So that policy I apply wherever I go that really helped me. I learned from lot of great people uh networking engineers, engineering managers and others. So which helped me a lot. Yeah. >> Mhm. This is really interesting that what you say because not everybody shares this mentality of uh oh my god I have this opportunity I work with a lot of uh you know experienced people now I'm going to use that to learn a lot. So, how did you know what you needed to learn? Or was it your c curiosity was so high that you were just ready to absorb anything from anyone who you saw that was successful and you just knew in your mind that whatever you learned from them would be valuable for you or did you have a strategy like oh these are the specific things I want to learn from each of the job or each of the opportunity? >> Yeah, when I went there uh the business process automation is something was new right so there are a lot of hype about it. So we were tked to find out a tool right tool that we can introduce to our customers. So that's why learning a course or something uh deeply will help you analyze and the trade-offs what you need to make and what is the solution you are going to build and what is the pros and cons. You used to share this in your courses. Always don't see or don't go very deep into a tool. Learn about the problem it solves and you can use any tool. You can replace that with any tool. That is the strategy I was also using there actually. So BPM business cost automation that is like uh related tools is the one which led me to learn a lot of new things in the D side. >> Okay. So now take me back to the step in Austin Texas. So how did you land the job in US? Did you search for it actively? Did someone approach you and offer you a job? How did that happen? >> Yeah, I was in Gulf happily. uh they gave me car uh gas card and everything complete sponsorship but I wanted to come back to India for my marriage actually so when I came back I was working for a consulting company so every year they used to file H1Bs for that uh customer places right so I got the opportunity I'm thankful to my manager who applied for my H1B visa which got selected so I came to Austin and I worked with applied materials as a contractor for one and a half years Actually the industry is completely different right? So the tools and other things what they use I cannot exactly tell what they are using but the industry itself it is completely different which helped me to learn a new industry or space from the previous one right so there are a lot of learnings within one and a half years and then I moved to Broadcom in 2014 actually so I was there as a principal application developer for 4 years most of my job on um office 365 shareepoint and uh all the collaboration tools basically so we manage the enterprise system of the company and also whenever a company acquires some other company so we need to migrate their workloads to into our ecosystem. So we select uh softwares and tools right scripts that is needed for that migration. So that was my shift from the first company in the US to the second company. >> Okay. So now you also mentioned about the time when you were laid off and you also mentioned that you were stuck in a specific tech stack. So how did that happen? Because you are someone by character that loves to learn who's curious who who is not thinking oh my god another thing to learn rather you you approach it with an excitement where like oh my god there's a new opportunity to learn something. So what was a tech stack that you had to kind of work with and you were stuck with and why do you think that led to you being laid off from the company? >> Uh it was not a single or few members layoff. It was because of the accusition there were lot of people let go. So I was impacted they did it in couple of stages. So I was part of the first phase of that. So far at that till that time I was working on specific technologies related to enabling enterprise collaboration tools kind of tools where you don't code a lot you will use uh low code or no code solutions a lot so you don't dive deep into it right and uh I will not blame the tools it it enables the enterprise uh in a different way like teams is a very good example we use every day right so we enable that tools it is very very important but at the same time when I was laid off when I started searching for job the market on that stack was bit low I tried to find it I got some offers as well but at the same time it was not the offer which I liked uh in the way I wanted uh so that is when I realized okay it's a narrow path so that's when I started to expand my skills into other technology stacks as well uh as a learning curve so I used that opportunity and I started learning about other Yeah. >> So did you you had to go back to India from uh Austin, Texas, right? >> Yeah. >> So what was your thought process exactly? Because after years of experience in the field and you you know you kind of have your career advancement suddenly you find yourself in a situation where you kind of have to take a step back like a huge step back. Did it feel frustrating for you like I have put so many years I've built my career and suddenly I'm in a position where I can't even find a job and also or how did you navigate the decision of what to learn? So how did you come up with this uh come to the conclusion that it's DevOps that you should be learning because I'm sure that you analyze multiple different types of professions within IT maybe even outside IT. So how take me back to like the whole process like what was going through your head what was your uh thought process during the time >> so in the SDLC process side of it right where I work in the space so we don't follow a lot of devops [laughter] practices uh into it right so that is when when I started learning I started uh thinking about uh yeah the way it was developed and shipped to the customers it's completely different in DevOps it's not something we can easily learn you need to spend lot of time on it Right? So it's not like you can watch some random videos and know about everything. So you need to know a definite part like what are all the things you need to learn, what are the tools you need to learn and all those things. We need to be very very clear. That's when I decided okay DevOps will be an option for us and let us explore uh and I started learning about all those things uh in a very high level right not at a deeper level. I started approaching that at a very high level watching free videos and reading materials and other things but it was like maybe it will help for one interview but not it may not help in the other interview right so the skill set what we focus the total tool chain what they use the way they approach the problem how they ship it is going to be different company uh in every company so I just need to learn the generalized skills which I can apply anywhere where I go right the tools may be different but the process and the methodology or the frameworks or the patterns what we use it's kind of common everywhere right so that is what I wanted to learn and that's why I chose that path >> so because of your experience existing experience seems like you already had an insight where you knew that this is actually valuable for companies because I've seen the the product delivery part and this is what I know that they will value why not software development for example was that an option for you did Do you think about choosing that career path instead? >> Yes, from the beginning I used to develop that is not a problem for me but uh the way I was working it's completely different than what I'm doing today. So that helped me a lot but even after going back to India right so I I worked for a startup for 8 months so which helped me to build product because it's a startup you know the startup culture how fast they ship the product. So that really helped me to work on different aspect of it. I was a delivery head for a small startup company. That helped me to learn a lot of uh customer pain points and how we ship products to customers, how to scale and all those things I learned from that company. Yeah. >> Okay. And then you decide that DevOps would still be more valuable. So it was like an layer on top of your existing software development skills and this is what you want to learn. >> Yeah. Until then it was like lot of my work was on premise and that's when cloud and other things came in. So in order to switch my career into DevOps or cloud I need to learn DevOps is number one right? So Docker, Kubernetes all these things. But I was thinking like oh man how many tools I'm going to learn new right so that's when I was so overwhelmed with the number of tools then I decided okay so we have to start with Linux basics and then networking and then go into the devops the uh other advanced tools like docker kubernetes anible and other tools yeah >> what Joseph just described is actually the most important insight in devops learning and it's a thing that most people get wrong when they start learning on their own. When you look at the DevOps landscape, there are thousands of tools. You have Terraform, Enzible, Docker, Kubernetes, Jenkins, GitLab, Argus CD, Prometheus, Graphana, and the list keeps going on with alternative tools of all the tools that I just mentioned. And the natural reaction, especially if you're coming from a development or infrastructure background, is to pick one tool and go deep into it and to just master that one tool. You think I'm gonna master Docker then I will master Kubernetes then I will figure out CI/CD and then I will move on to Prometheus. But the problem with that approach is that you end up learning tools without understanding the big picture of the system that they are part of. And when you go into the real company or a job interview or real project, nobody asks you to know one tool in isolation. You're expected to understand how to connect them to build a complete process. They ask you design and architecture questions where you combine these tools. How code gets from a developer's machine to production. What happens at every step of that pipeline? Where security fits in? Who is responsible for what parts? And that's not something that you can piece together from five different tool courses. It actually requires seeing the whole picture. And what Joseph realized after the layoff is something that I've heard from a lot of experienced engineers that deep expertise in a narrow stack is actually a career risk if that stack changes and in tech and it in general stacks always change eventually. That's why I always say concepts and foundational knowledge before tools. So the DevOps ecosystem when you learn it properly and understand the underlying concepts and combination of tools at a conceptual level it gives you something more durable. you understand the patterns that stay consistent even when the specific tools change because whether a company is using Jenkins or GitHub actions or GitLab or whatever new tool whether they are on AWS or Azure the underlying reasoning for why they are building things in a certain way is always the same and that's exactly what Joseph was looking for and that leads directly to how he found our courses starting interestingly not with the DevOps boot hemp but with something much more specific. So in your feedback you mentioned I mean I am very proud to to be part of your career journey because of where you are right now. It's extremely impressive and you mentioned that you basically learned the entire DevOps ecosystem through our content which is a large like DevOps ecosystem is one of the largest considering all the IT care like career professions. So what did that look practically for you? Because when you looked into DevOps, you obviously realized okay these are a lot of tools that I would need to understand. There are a lot of concepts under those tools that I need to understand. So what did your learning process look like? Because you pro as you mentioned you started watching some YouTube videos. Where were some challenges where you realized okay this is too overwhelming or oh this is actually this makes sense. So how did your learning look like before you basically decided to do one of our boot camps eventually? >> Yeah, as um I was going through all this, I'm also growing in the level also, right? So from individual contributor to staff level and other things when it comes to staff level, there are a lot of things. So you need to know the technical vision. It's not about the tools, you know, you need to know the architecture and you need to know how to unlock your engineer's problem, right? So you will organically mentor people but you need to know the technical vision of the company right you may need to evaluate architecture against different uh uh different tools and uh if the tool does not support what you want you you need to know how you can customize the tool or create a wrapper around that to meet companies like right so uh and also technical marketing I will say as a staff level you will be an influential figure in terms of convincing the decisions made right so these are all different aspects we cannot gain this kind of experience if you go through some random videos so you need to know the exact tool sets used in the entire ecosystem and where exactly we need to use this right so you need to know some tools you don't need to uh explain a lot in front of the sea level executive sometimes you need to simplify for different stakeholders there are a lot of things you may need to do you need to create lot of visual aids to explain that I really like from your videos. Uh so you need to tell a story first of all uh right uh why this tool was introduced and how it is going to help and what kind of return on investment if you implement this tool why this tool versus the other tool in the same space like for example gitlab versus harness or genkins. So this tool the entire course really helped me to decide these things and because of that when I design some solution the team members right they were able to trust my decisions with the data points whatever I'm presenting right that that is very important so you can design a very beautiful solution in terms of architecture diagrams and other things but why I chose that and what are all the trade-offs I made that is very important for people to trust your relationship so that you can go back and talk to your downstream engineers who is who are going to build that feature for you, right? So that's why I chose this. >> And how did you make a decision because obviously before you did the course or the training the Devils boot camp or DevS boot camp, you didn't know exactly how the course was structured or what how in-depth it was. So what made you choose a structured program in general and specifically ours like what made you make that decision of this is what I need to do? It starts with foundation like Linux. So I have to go through all this foundational stuff before I get to the >> core of DevOps which also needs patience and it also needs a certain work ethic. So what made you decide that you would do specifically our training and also have the patience and and willpower to just go through it and and do it in depth? So first what I did is like as I said I was going through some free videos from your channel and other channels like codecloud and other uh channels I was going through it and I understood what it is I was able to do some basic tasks actually but I was thinking about do I need to get the full course deops or devops course because it's it's a lengthy course uh you need to spend a lot of time if you are really interested to switch your career and also budget wise also I need to think right so what I did first before even I took the devops course I took gitlab and Kubernetes course. Kubernetes course was my first course actually because end of the day even if you dockerize it has to be deployed in a cluster right so that's when I thought okay Kubernetes is the right course for me to start with your programs so I went through the Kubernetes course completely uh even though it is a Kubernetes course you covered from the basics there like including some important Linux commands and docker why it is important and all those things right so that gave me the confidence and it's worth putting my budget here. So that's when I decided okay I'll uh do this next course then GitLab because I was so heavily into genkins at that time. So I just wanted to learn about one other tool end to end. So that's why I chose the GitLab course to learn about all these things. Nowadays I'm using whatever I'm I learned from that course with harness at at the moment. So there are lot of things helped me from these two courses. After that only I decided to buy a full course. there cycle course because uh it's a practice right I'm part of the cyber security team in every phase of your software development process I need to introduce security in the project whatever I'm working right so and I need to train the team because I get interns to train I get any engineers to work with me they may not have the shiplift approach the that is maybe that is not part of their career course or things like that right so that will be followed heavily in the enterprise companies so I wanted to infuse that culture in the early stages of their career. Right? That is my thought process. So I wanted to declare hope for them and also develop the team in the day-to-day job. Right? So that's why I chose this. If I don't know, I cannot teach my fellow engineers. Right? That is the thought led me to take a proper coach so that I can build a team with a culture security mindset culture in the team and so that they can follow that uh in the day-to-day process. >> And then you did devops. So how did that happen? Because usually we have a lot of people who do the DevOps boot as a foundation of like DevOps tools and concepts and so on and then they do devs which is like a step up from that. So how did that reverse happen in your case? >> At one point my role was on the application side of it not on the infrastructure side of it right. So after that I realized like there are some projects I need to work on anible top and other things. That's when I started thinking about learning about the infrastructure as a code and other things where I need to provision. So it's basically because of the project right. So initially I started with uh developing secure application and then even in that process you need some DevOps aspect of it or tools of it. Then I decided even I requested I sent an email to your team that I just wanted to learn specific modules from the DevOps course that was not an option at that time and then I decided okay we will take DevOps course completely so that it will be end to end for me to learn and grow in this and make other people also grow in that uh aspect. Yeah. [music] So what do you remember from either Deviops or DevOps in terms of like practical projects that you did like did you have a point or a specific moment or a project that kind of raised your confidence in your skills? Because as a manager you said you needed to know stuff so that you could teach your teams so that you could integrate processes that your teams could follow. So did did you have a moment where you're like okay this just gave me a confidence in myself as a tech manager so that I can teach my team or I can introduce new concepts or new processes in my team. Did you have that type of specific moment or was it just a chain of like small moments like this? So uh in one of the projects right so I have to analyze there are a lot of slack bots were developed and deployed engineers used to provision their own server and deploy the slack bots wherever they want right in that project the task given for me was to identify such patterns and then convert them into microservices kind of solution and then deploy it in a cluster so that's when I realized okay I'm going to use the knowledge which I gained from the devops and dev sec ops post because it's like a migration project. I need to go through onremise service and find out what are such applications. I need to find out what's the total cost of ownership and who is the owner of this, why they're using or why not because it's a culture change also, right? When you when you ask a team to convert into microservices of Docker, it's a culture change. It may be a new thing for them. So you may need to work with them closely and help them with the PC's and wherever they are stuck you need to help them unblock their issues and other things. That's when I really used the skills what I learned from these courses. Then I decided okay so learning a a course with a proper curriculum right that is going to help you because uh the experience what you gain from a project right it is project specific or company specific or you may use a tool specific to that company and also it's about your team some teams are very mature team you may not get a chance to work on everything some teams are not mature team they may be new to devops or dev sec ops where you need to help end to end >> another thing I'm curious about because I'm hugely inspired by people who keep learning even when they reach a certain career level or certain level of success because it's really difflacent right to say you know what I'm a senior engineer I know my stuff I can learn on the job I don't need to you know or I don't need to keep learning like new technologies I'm I'm going to take it easy but you took like a completely opposite approach where you're like I'm going to do the fundamentals I'm going to keep learning you literally did like almost all our programs. So first of all, why do you think that level of motivation for learning is important and how do you think that gives you an advantage over other senior engineers who would have been in your position who say a little bit arrogantly maybe you know I'm I'm just going to learn on the job or I'm just going to go with the flow because I'm a senior engineer. I I've learned enough in my career. >> Yeah. coming from teachers family all my aunties and my mom and my sister is a teacher my wife is also a teacher now so basically from the beginning learning from others is something it was on me and also everyday learning is something going to help you in terms of the technical growth right so that's why I just wanted to don't rely on my own skills what I know at the moment because things change rapidly I have seen the technology evolution in different aspects right uh in Microsoft side I started working with Microsoft track with WSS 3.0 0 that's when sharepoint was introduced from then I'm working so I know how fast Microsoft ships the product and changes the road map and other things right so with that you cannot say or I cannot say that I know everything because there will be one other person better than you so you can you can learn from them that is something always in my mind so I can learn from everyone so uh learning is daily part of my life the people around me know very well about me And it is not see it's not about learning only right it's about sharing what you learn. So learning part may help you but uh it's a compounding effect effect I will say when you share because you will see people's different perspective and how they solve the same problem with a different idea or a different framework that will that is something going to help you in a different project as well right and it will help help you in terms of designing the solution the design thinking mindset will come into you when you will learn from others as One thing you mentioned I found very interesting. You said as an IT team lead, you need to be able to make well-informed decisions. You need to have enough knowledge that you can confidently decide this is the system design we're going to go with. This is the tech ST that we're going to choose for our systems. And you you mentioned that the train you basically learning the fundamentals and like filling those knowledge gaps gave you the confidence and the knowledge that helped you to exactly know okay this is the combination of tools that we're going to use. So what exactly in the the boot camps or in the trainings was it that helped you gain that type of knowledge that you could make architecture decisions about which tools and which concepts and how to combine them. Do you know what it was in those trainings that helped you with that? >> Yeah, definitely. So, when it comes to designing the solution or when a company wants to achieve something, right, there is a reason behind that. First of all, you need to understand it helped me to understand what they wanted to solve. Some companies are very mature companies in cloud. They wanted to cost optimize. Some teams wanted to migrate to cloud for the very first time. So, their perspective is different. First, let us migrate and then fine-tune it. Right? Some companies may not even know about cloud and you need to teach them. So uh first of all based on what is your company's problem and strategy. It helped me to pick or create artifacts what is needed for the stakeholders. You need to know your audience right? I cannot go very technical in in front of the sea level executives. They don't like it right. So they wanted to see what are you going to do to help this strategy company strategy. Right? It really helped me because if you don't know the tools how you are going to solve the problem you cannot uh make a decision there right so because when you go and make a decision your leaders may like it but your downstream's uh engineers may not like it so you need to have the communication skills and the influential aspect of it into your day-to-day job otherwise they will not commit to what you agree right so that is very very important my one strategy is like even if you if you decision is not selected commit to your work if it is decided as a team right so that is my process in whatever I'm doing so I help young engineers also to learn this um so encourage early feedbacks and other things because creating PC's and other things will help you to get early feedback so that you can design the solution in a different way and add other trade-offs and other things into it that's how I I approach this actually this course has definitely helped me to decide on uh this actually. >> Yeah. Because when I was creating the modules and um teaching the tools because it's the the modules are basically on specific tools but the the reasoning which kind of coincides co coincides to how you think about it as a senior engineer was before you learn the tool learn the concept but before you learn the concept learn why is this concept even needed? What problem does it solve? And then when you combine knowledge of different concepts and the and the reasons behind those concepts every time you learn for example you learn docker now you learn CI/CD now you learn kubernetes now you learn cloud you combine all this knowledge and you basically make a combination of okay why are those solutions needed in in combination with each other why you know what kind of use cases do we cover and solve with this is this right tool even in this situation maybe it's thought right not to just memorize the syntax of uh I don't know Kubernetes manifest file or or docker file but to develop the analytical thinking and the logical thinking to ask questions and and question why are we using this tool how do we combine this you know what problem are we are we solving with this do you think junior developers should immediately try to train that muscle and it's not something that only senior engineers should focus on would you agree on with Yeah. Yeah. Definitely juniors, junior engineers must learn this because nowadays we are using a lot of AI tools and uh they think uh whatever uh we need to generate can help but the context you have about the tool and the patterns and practices where you applied and how you applied what kind of architectural decision uh you made on what context right with whom all these are very very useful right so they need to learn this because this is something a cannot help you it may help you based on the context what you're giving but your real experience and other things and the company specific context uh towards the project that is something that can come from you right that's you cannot take the responsibility of what it generates right so you need to take the responsibility and the security aspect of what it generates so that's where uh you need to learn this along with the other productivity tools like uh AI tools like so definitely we need to learn So another really important discussion point which is whenever people like engineers have a full-time job they have a family they have additional responsibilities the biggest issue and pain point is how do I find time to learn right so on the one hand you have this thing where you need to keep learning because you need to stay up to date especially in IT things change so rapidly how did you actually manage that because you know doing two really intense programs plus doing two additional press. I'm sure you were learning in addition with a lot of resources. Did you have any specific time management strategy that you have this responsibility at work? You're not an individual contributor. You're actually a manager. How did you make time to actually learn at such a consistent rate for a long time? How did you do that? >> Yeah, this is the difficult part, right? Everyone will take gym membership on the first day of January but after one week they will not go go there right so it is kind of that right so we may uh take decision to become a engineering manager or staff level engineer or devops engineer cloud engineer but the consistency in doing that or learning that is very very important personally um everyone's uh time and schedule are different for me I'm a early morning person so my timing like 5 5:30 to 6:30 is my learning time every day and Saturdays and Sundays uh Sundays I don't do anything but Saturdays at least I will spend uh 1 hour or 2 hours whenever mostly when the kids and family they take rest right because other times we'll be busy with their schedule helping them and all those things that is one thing and the way you may not have ideas or you don't know what to study right so recently I started following a pattern what I used to do is because of the AI train and other things. I used to go through the job descriptions posted by different companies and see what they are doing and how we can utilize that till in terms of building new ideas and maybe recording the current job to create the awareness and how it is industry trend is going right that is another way uh industry news and following some uh people because information is everywhere you need to find the right people it's like there is a saying right the world is full of great people you you need to find one if if you cannot be one right so I find the right people and where you can learn from right that is very very important because I have been in situations where I watch or read some article which may not be very useful that much but maybe in one aspect it may be useful in the future but finding the right content and right finding the right course or right people is very very important [music] >> so you also mentioned that and this is another interesting topic that I want to people to be aware of which is you mentioned that your the trainings that you did with us was funded also by your employer right which is a really huge untapped potential for engineers who want to learn maybe they're not they don't have enough funds or they don't have that you know they have this commitment barrier so or what would you advise to engineers who either don't know about this possibility or they want to take advantage of it so how would they approach coach getting their trainings funded by employers and how did you do that actually you personally? Yeah, definitely. So, there are two things here, right? First, before even employer sponsored courses and other things, right? So, personally, I spend good amount of money every year to learn something new that year. So, I set that budget every year starting off every year and not because I'm in the US. It is my pattern from the days when I was in India, right? So, I run my own website. I run the budget for that and all those things, right? Hosting and all those things. I set a budget. So setting a budget for your own growth is very important I will say because we change our phones every year. So why not spend more money in building our own uh career right? So that is my first thing. Second thing is a great company which spends a lot of uh time and effort in building the people right. So especially my department uh cyber security art they develop people uh in different aspects like uh like uh running the mentoring program shadowing program and learning or going to conferences learning from training courses like yours and all those things right so that is definitely something every engineer especially young engineers they need to spend some time and investigation on it and find out uh because when you go to your manager with a very big budget right they may not agree first what I will recommend is maybe take the courses like Kubernetes or GitLab kind of low budget courses first of all and prove yourself in the place where you're working and the knowledge what you learn from this all gained that will help to build the trust with your manager to get the budget for the bigger courses and other things that is something it's my personal humble opinion uh but if you get that opportunity definitely use it because it is going to help you shape your career uh in your path yeah >> this is an amazing advice I love it by the >> [music] >> So we can let's do a followup on the great advices because I want you to give advice to two categories of people. So first of all, let's take junior engineers. Objectively, because of AI, the career opportunities for junior engineers have become tougher, right? It has become way tougher than it was before, right? If you're a senior engineer, you have a lot of experience, you are even more valuable with AI. But if you're a junior engineer, the story is a little bit diff. If you had to give junior engineers specifically advice whether they are you know in software development or just starting into DevOps, how would you advise them to get over those challenges kind of get their foot in and then develop the career faster than the development of AI so that they kind of stay ahead of the curve. >> Yeah, definitely for new engineers. I know it's very difficult to find a job nowadays but that is not an end right because you can you have other opportunities while you are learning all these courses and how it is developed and shipped only when you enter into a company you know how it is developed inside right that's why I mentioned about the job script job descriptions posted right so you know what every company is using and what tools and what is expected it is not about the technical skills right sometimes for junior engineers it may be a behavioral They may need to improve the way they collaborate with others. They that is leadership skills and other things. You don't need to know all the leadership skills but there are few things you can improve right the way you communicate how you make decisions and other things that you can differentiate from others by learning in the early stages of your career. That is my first advice. But uh in the AI side of it everyone is developing nowadays. So now the one percentage who are working in this space is like security and building governance around that right that is something maybe uh junior engineers can learn a little bit about like how cost optimization another thing right so there are a lot of tokens used in every generation. So if you can come up with a cool idea which will save some money for the company, maybe you can build up a small pre-flight tool which can validate every request and do something about it. Right? So that will be a great thing to showcase uh as a portfolio uh builder. You can do this and showcase in front of the customers and networking is very very important. Connect with people don't hesitate. I was very hesitant to contact people and then uh these courses like uh which helped me in that aspect also because communication is something very very important. So try to connect with people in a genuine way right it's not that just for the opportunity don't go to the people just for the opportunity try to connect with people uh genuinely and try to learn something from them so that will uh definitely help. Yeah >> that's also amazing. So a general pattern what's from what you mentioned is basically try to deliver value before you ask for an opportunity because I love the idea of showcasing your work by building something that you notice is maybe needed and valuable for the companies and literally be like hey company whatever you may need this tool and this is what I've built before you even hired me. So that is like the that's the best way to stand out and it doesn't need if like you can use AI to actually build those kind of stuff to to use it to your advantage and that is a perfect example of giving value before you asking for something. So I love that that specific advice actually I wanted to be really hands-on also because even uh last week last weekend I developed a small app for the church where I'm going the church pastor used to send me a MP4 file audio file uh which needs to be converted into video I was doing with Canva and other tools and there are a lot of uh specific uh setup I need to do it. So I was just designing that and deployed it in railway platform right it's like just 2 hours work if you know how to dockerize it's a docker container again right MongoDB and other things I'm using it took very less time for me because I know how to build so that kind of things uh you can showcase in your interviews and wherever you are projecting you can see my articles in my website you'll see a lot of cool ideas uh because I write any uh any article with a story behind it right So I I just wanted to give a story and then how I solve the problem in that story, right? So if you can build your technical materials and other things in that way, definitely hiring managers and the hiring team will like it because it's not traditional way of developing things, right? Yeah, >> they would love it. I would argue because I'm also on the hiring side and if I have an applicant an engineer who basically sends me a tool that they have built that especially if it's valuable for for us as a company she would be like number one on the list because nobody is doing it you immediately stand out and I would argue that even if someone like let's say if you if you have a junior engineer who is kind of desperate for a job because the opportunities are not low they will probably be thinking ah like I I I don't want to invest time in building something because you know I'm looking for a job and I need the job security first. But that spec like that investment of time and effort in learning something first of all you are developing your technical skills plus if you apply uh to I don't know 50 job positions you increase the chances of you getting interviewed or hired maybe by 100% versus if you don't invest that time and just desperately try to look for a job. So I I really really love that practical advice by the way. So another group of people that I want you to give uh career advice to is Indian engineers. So specifically engineers who are based in India because 35% of our audience on YouTube are Indians. It is one of the largest group and there are amazing engineers there. However, we have a lot of students, a lot of people in our community who basically have this challenge of we cannot find jobs remotely or outside the country and I'm sure that you are going to be inspiration for a lot of engineers or people who want to be engineers in India itself. So I want you to give uh them specifically advice of how to achieve the same career levels that you have achieved. >> Yeah. So uh coming from India it's like uh I know the competition and the number of jobs posted versus the competition or the number of people applied is huge right compared to other places. I know that it is painful uh sometimes when you really wanted to get into a job quickly or after the layoff and things like that. What I will say is like when I was laid out it took some time for me to digest uh that news. So spend some time I will say focus more on learning new things whether you get the fruit or not just invest more time in learning. Uh I know there will be a point where you will be rewarded. whatever advices I gave for junior engineers just don't limit yourself with a specific technology or location or a company or function right so try to be flexible because in all the changes I made I was flexible in the first job when we got a project the manager who called me for the project came to place where we were all sitting together and he asked like I want 12 people in business to work in business intelligence who are interested so I was the first one So it's like be flexible because if you are reluctant to change it because the technology will change every now and then. So it will be absolute quickly. So if you can learn and be aware of what is happening around you like what is the industry trend and other things to learn from and active listening from anyone right even you may be a senior engineer junior engineer may have a better idea than you. active listening from them and learning from them is very very important because nowadays engineers are too good to learn from right so be open to learn from anyone actually uh that is very very important especially the location constraints don't keep the location constraint I know family dependency and other things are there but when there is opportunity try to take that maybe once you join you can ask for a relocation or things like that I have done that in my uh job but you try uh different things but uh be patient. I know it is very hard if you don't get a job uh quickly. I know the pain. So stay calm, consistently practice what you're doing. You will be rewarded at the right right time. >> Yeah, I love that advice as well. I'm sure I can tell already that a lot of people will be inspired and it will motivate people to make to take action because you may be inspired, you may be motivated but the best impact is when someone is pushed to take action. I was like, "Okay, now I'm I'm ready to take action." So, I'm sure that it will resonate with a lot of people. >> So, I have a few final questions. One thing that I definitely want to touch on is your career at PayPal because you started at PayPal, but you actually had a pretty fast advancement in career and that is not a accident, right? It it takes it's not only the technical skills but it's a combination of technical skills, soft skills, your mindset, the curiosity, the continuous learning. So tell me about your career journey at PayPal and what do you think was the biggest contributor to your career success? How you made those steps basically so fast? And specifically in parallel to that because you did some of our programs as well while you were at PayPal. How did each one of those like learning resources kind of plug into your career next step basically at uh at PayPal? >> Yeah definitely from the beginning automation is one thing I was hired to do automation on the security side of it. So that is the immediate thing which helped especially operation engineers or team will like you when you do automation for them because it saves a lot of their time and they can focus on the core things. So when you get into a job just see what is the core problem just because I know Kubernetes I don't want to implement Kubernetes right so that may not make any sense for them right so just try to understand the team's problem and what is the number one or number two problem and and pick the high impact problems if you can sometimes and also don't take fully high impact problems take something like uh 70% is high high impact problem and 30% is low hanging fruit that can solve that will be something helping them a lot right so try to pick 70 30%age kind of view investigate on it so try to understand uh what kind of uh space they are working what is the real-time problem by analyzing their tickets and the changes what they are making and the incidents getting created why it was how it was create postpon was created evaluated and all those things right that will give you some insights where you need to focus and then take a couple of items and then work with the stakeholders to understand Because you may be new to the team or you may not know the full context about it. Right? Connecting with the right people and finding the right people is very important. Bigger companies it's very difficult to find the right people because it's huge. Right? So you need the right people to connect with to understand the context behind that why it is working like this because you cannot make a architectural decision or process decisions immediately without knowing the complete aspect of it. So understand and connect with the right people and then focus on doing a small P or something like that because people will trust you when you show something not when you say I know something. So try to uh prove by doing something because we cannot always complain about the problem. We need to give the solution to the problem. So try to solve the problem with the small use cases and gain the trust with people and then go more deeper. So that is the approach which I followed uh in all the projects what I involved and also be open to share with others. That is one thing which I do every day. Uh company runs a mentorship program. I participate in the mentorship program and also I mentor people officially one person and officially many people. So be that person right uh be the person you can be trusted right in the decisions what we make and uh in the real feedback what we give right because toughest feedback is the one we don't want to hear right so that is something you have to open to hear I have listened to some of the hard feedbacks I was not good at it so I'm improving it I'm not perfect I'm improving myself every day learning from others that is the approach I take >> amazing amazing I love >> [music] >> next to. So in parallel to your career advancement at PayPal, you also became a Docker captain AD as community builder. And I remember I actually read your your email where you said that back then probably when you started watching our videos, you saw the docker captain title that I had and you thought it was not like easily accessible to you. And then fast forward right now you have the title, you have the the Docker captain, the AWS community builder. So tell me about how did you get them, you know, what was your reaction? What was your you know, I'm I'm sure you were proud of it, but like what was the the feeling of like having these titles in addition to your career success at a company like PayPal? What was that like? >> Yeah, definitely. So before even Dr. captain in the AWS community builder. Uh I was in the Microsoft most valuable uh professional program for 4 years. I used to watch people right. So the main thing I wanted to achieve that first thing you need to find out how to do that right. It's not something because I know something and apply and it is getting approved. So they really evaluate how you are engaged and how you are sharing the knowledge with others and community friends. Right. First with Microsoft MCP. So that helped me a lot in learning about community how we can learn from uh different people around the world right. So you may be trying to do something with a region specific experience or something when you're involved in communitydriven activities you know different people the way they develop ship uh it'll be different right so you may learn that so that is the first thing and then when I started learning about docker and other things I was casually checking your profile in the AWS community builder profile I guess I saw AWS hero badge and docker captain also because I got Microsoft MVP I thought uh it is easy to get a docker captain in this community builder program but devops is very big right I cannot go and claim that I want this bad because of this right so I need to wait for it actually I was on a Florida trip with my family that is when uh uh just two weeks before I applied for the program it took nearly 2 years for me to learn all this and implement it and share my real experience in the forum and in my workplace and other things which helped me to give the confidence when I first saw saw that budge in your profile. I thought no obviously you're not going to give it to me because you're too good in DevOps and Kubernetes space cloud and other things. So this is definitely not for me right. So I was underestimating myself even though I got something in the past but I was underestimating but learning is something going to change you a lot. It's not that u I'm saying this proudly but very humbly I'm saying if you learn in a consistent way and share uh with others definitely these things you will get it. So I applied for it before the Florida trip. During my trip I was in Florida in Disneyland and I got a email from docker team that you were awarded with the docker captain. So when I saw that very few people in the US got this and also MVP also and community builder these programs really really helpful and not only in learning things what is coming new and all those things but also the way I interact with people the how I create the content uh how I share the knowledge back in the company right so that is really really useful so when I received it I could not even believe because docker is something it was not in my career at all right and then I learned it from different people especially mostly from you. So that helped me to get this. So when I achieved that I could not even believe that right. So it's all God's grace I will say on top on top of everything what I'm saying. So thank you so much for that inspiration. >> I love that by the way. I love the timeline of you saw it for the first time and you saw you thought this is out of reach. This is probably not for me. I've not done anything with Docker. Then there was a time where you were like wait a minute maybe it is possible. So you it became realistic at some point and then you just said let's reverse engineer how to actually get there because there must be a plan right there must be a way and it took a long time but there was a very specific laid out plan and you just followed it and you got it like it is it is extremely inspiring. It's it's amazing. I'm also very proud of you and I'm also proud to have been a part of that type of journey. It's it's it's amazing to to hear such >> basically the plan is nothing but your course uh curriculum basically I will say because it's a new space for me when I started learning about all this right so the entire course helped me because uh we use that every day right even though it is just doctor we use it in a different use cases right so it's all learning from your course plus I would like to thank other content creators like you like code cloud cloud with Raj who is my very close friend. So I learned a lot of things from him. I think last time you came to New York, you met him. I wanted to meet him in New York but I couldn't travel that time. But I'm in touch with him every now and then. So with good people. Yeah. That is my advice. Yeah. >> Which also confirms what you said which is find the right people, learn from them, network with them. You befriended one of them. I know Raj, he he's amazing as well. Before we get to the final topic, I want to take a moment to explain what Docker captain and AWS community builder titles actually are because if you're not deep in the DevOps ecosystem yet, those titles may not mean much to you and they are actually very honorary titles in the field. So, Docker Captain is a program run by Docker itself. There are roughly 60 people in the world who hold this title at any given time. So Docker selects them based on two things. Real demonstrable technical expertise in the container and Docker ecosystem. And second, consistent community contribution, meaning articles, talks, forum contributions, open-source work, sharing genuine knowledge with the broader community and so on. So you don't study for a test. It's not something that you apply for and you get it. It comes from years of doing the work publicly and consistently where they assign you this honorary title because you earned it through your work. AWS community builder is a similar program run by AWS Amazon Web Services, a larger group but still a real recognition that requires demonstrated expertise and active engagement. So very similar criteria. What I find meaningful about Joseph's timeline is that it took him nearly two years from when he decided to seriously pursue Docker Captain to the day he received the email. Two years of building, writing, sharing, not in order to get the badge. That was not his sole purpose of doing that, but because that's already what he was doing. So it was actually a side byproduct. The badge was recognition for work that he was already doing. And this connects to something that I've observed consistently across the engineers who reach a senior level and keep advancing which is community engagement is not separate from their learning. It is the learning in many cases. So when you write an article about a topic that you have worked with, you actually understand it at a different depth than when you just read about it. When you explain something to a colleague or in a blog post or on LinkedIn, you find the gaps in your own understanding very fast so you can fill those gaps and get a deeper knowledge. Joseph has been doing this for years. The Docker captain title and the AWS community builder recognition are basically just visible results of that work, but the real result shows up much more directly in his day-to-day in the architectural decisions that his team trusts in the junior engineers that he's mentoring in the 9,000 hours that his team saved through automation at PayPal. So these are tangible practical results from his knowledge. And now the last topic and it's one of the most relevant for anyone watching this right now which is AI and what it actually means for a career in DevOps or Dev Sec Ops. Joseph has a very specific grounded take on this and it comes from someone who manages a cyber security engineering team at one of the world's largest payment companies. So I have two final questions. Uh the first one is a huge topic right now and I would really love to have your um insight here and also advice from you to uh a lot of the you know again like a lot of junior engineers who fear it and they feel threatened by it but also a lot of experienced engineers who are maybe in a little bit more outdated IT roles like networking network engineers you know data science um you know CIS admins and so on. uh because you also have a unique perspective of not just you know engineer but you're also uh a managing a manager of uh cyber security engineering uh at a large company. So what is your career advice to people that are feeling threatened by AI? And many times they're asking themselves, is it actually worth for me to invest next two to three years learning uh something that may get outdated in the future because AI is going to take over any every single job including the IT roles. What would you tell those people uh in a way that they actually believe racially um that they are not completely threatened and going to be replaced by uh AI? >> Yeah, definitely there are couple of spaces definitely I think we can contribute a lot with all the other AI productivity tools, right? So security and infrastructure side of it, right? the way we ship even if it is AI it runs on a bare metal server somewhere on a VM or somewhere right so infrastructure provisioning or managing the infrastructure that is definitely not going to change it's going to be there for a long time I will say and security right we know we know about the shared responsibility model when it comes to AWS right so you know what AWS will take care and what we need to take care what is the application deployment team will take care so these AI tools right now there is no shared respons responsibility model at at all like it generates based on what it is trained right so maybe the responsibility and ownership side of it is definitely going to be there for a long time even though we buy different tools and other things end of the day the tools will be managed by us and I will say learn about the forward deployed engineer role responsibilities that may be future lot of job roles I'm seeing as dep forward deployed engineer roles so maybe we can learn from what is expected out of that role, right? And maybe you may be running you may be running a team of agents, right? And you may need to orchestrate like whoever it is, you may be the orchestrator. So just learn about that aspect as well. But definitely human context uh in terms of developing the project in a company is really really important. There are a lot of automation scripts and other things you may not know the language and other things that is not required anymore maybe. the way you implement the pattern your company follows the compliance record for the application and other things that will be managed uh and developed by us right so definitely there will be a lot of opportunities in that space >> when we created dev sec boot camp I remember doing the analysis and it was literally the statistic that there were the probably the least dev sec ops engineers in the world compared to the other IT roles it it was so rare the profession itself was rare which is also understandable because it combines like three very huge IT professions in one role which is one human being basically doing uh the this type of breadth of things in IT. Would you say that because of AI and because of things becoming even less secure because of a lot of experimentation and using AI agents the security and dev sec ops specifically so security in DevOps is become has become even more important than before that companies find it even more valuable now. Would you agree with that? >> Yeah definitely security is something even today right in our pipelines we are using uh because the code it generates that has to be validated. We may have tools for it also that needs to be evaluated whether it is catching the right thing or not. Right? In the security side of it, even though the AI tools and other things are introduced, we can use both, right? The tools like uh secret scanning and other vulnerability scanning tools and other things that may catch based on the patterns in the past, right? Or the vulnerability numbers and other things, right? But with AI, you can use both these tools. maybe AI based code review or security review and other things you can build on top of CI/CD pipeline that will understand your codebase right because these tools may not understand your whole codebase maybe AI models with the context what you're giving it can understand what is your company standard what is the security practice you need to follow and how one issue is related to the other issue in from one module to the other module right so all these things can be caught by this AI tools and LL models that will help the develop Because it's not about finding 100 vulnerabilities and throwing them to developers to find out how you are going to solve this, right? Uh it's not about that. It's about giving the plan or road map. This is your codebase. These are all the vulnerabilities. This is the high impact ones and you need to solve this. If you solve this problem, this is the return on investment and this is the security posture you are going to close. Right? So all those things, right? It's not going to be achieved with one single tool. Not just LLM, not just the tools what we use like code rabbit and other tools, right? So maybe combination of these two will definitely help. So learning AI specific skills in this aspect is definitely going to help because everyone is going to develop, right? I have seen uh people like program managers and others they build tools like a rapper on top of other tools, program management tools and other things. I have seen but I have seen uh a scenario where nontechnical person developed something when they came to me they don't know where to deploy this and how to do doctorize and deploy this in a secure way CI/CD pipeline and other things that's where you can help right so learning this space is definitely going to help >> and I'm going to add on on top of that to kind of summarize the AI versus IT plus the security aspect is that a lot of people have this lick mindset of like there there is nothing else to do there like everything's going to be taken over over by AI. But the field is so rich and so diverse. There's so many things. It is a hu like hugely complex thing which is a disadvantage when you're an engineer who is frustrated to kind of handle all this stuff. But it's also an advantage because it's so complex. It it has the infrastructure provisioning part. It has the CI/CD delivery part. It has the Kubernetes cluster management part. Then security comes on top of that in every single step in that pipeline in that processes. And there is so many things that engineers still need to do that AI is not going to magically take over because these are lot of moving parts where AI you just use it as a tool in addition to with other tools to just make your work easier. So there is an abundance of tasks for engineers there to do and it will stay like this for next years and I think the fear comes mostly from the people who don't have that insight into DevOps and don't know how complex of an ecosystem that is and security is like its own beast basically on top of that complexity >> it's like I may know many things but security is something going to live everywhere right so learn security aspect of everything like access and security part how it is going to be given to the users right what is the author and authentication process involved in all of this >> going to stay right so definitely uh these two areas and infrastructure access and security these three things are not going away so you have to learn some tools and processes new trends around this topic that will definitely help so I have a last question for you you are a manager of cyber security engineering at PayPal you have a docker captain captain title. You have the AWS community builder title. What is your next step? Like what what is it that you are you aspire to do now in as the next steps or multiple steps in your career? >> Yeah, definitely. So hands-on is something which I really like always staying on top of what I'm doing but at the same time that should not limit my team members in taking the decisions like their own ideas and what they are learning should come into light right so I need to help the team uh not just uh what based on what I know I just wanted to be curious to learn from them my perspective is like I wanted to go in the same level like with some uh hands-on experience as well. I think being an individual contributor is something good for me as well in the future. So you have seen like lot of CTOs becoming individual contributors in LinkedIn. So uh staying on top of the technology and hands-on is something I wanted to continue to do and help others as well. That is my goal. >> Awesome. Joseph, this has been extremely inspiring for me as well. Thank you so much for sharing your story, for sharing your advice to a lot of engineers that I'm sure will be inspired by the this and they need that advice a lot of them. Thank you so much for sharing that. It was one of my favorite interviews to be honest. >> Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for this opportunity as well. It's all based on my realtime experience what I'm sharing. It may not be relevant to you or it may be something the way you wanted to receive this may be differently but at one point I feel and hope that this advices and whatever conversation we had like that is going to help someone. Uh thank you so much for watching this video as well and thank you for this opportunity. Please check out my LinkedIn profile and website. Yeah, we'll we'll leave all the information down there and the the website where you mentioned where people can get in inspiration for maybe projects that they can present for job search and so on. We're going to link them. Thank you. Thank you so much, Joseph.
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