Before, I was scared of the terminal, you know, I didn't know what it was. Yeah, this black box. >> [laughter] >> And now, today in my current job, I'm using the terminal every day, you know, every day. When I was seeing a lot of stories on the internet from people that they completely switched careers, you know, after doing a boot camp, and I was really, really intrigued by that. And yeah, and I decided to to bet on myself, you know, and do the same. Yeah, during that time, yeah, as I say, it was pretty intense. I didn't socialize that much, you know. It was >> [laughter] >> I mean, you have to sacrifice something, you know. I remember that the first interviews, like I was collecting, you know, all this intel, you know, writing down the questions that they were asking, and then I was rereading all the parts, you know, from your boot camp, and then I was preparing, you know, the right answers. And then after, yeah, I was doing it much, much better. To get a job in DevOps and cloud, I needed three things. I became Golden Kushka this summer. I'm the first one the first person in Switzerland, and also the first woman in Spain. She took a pay cut, left a senior position at a major medical devices company, started as a junior DevOps engineer making less money than she had in years. Less than a year later, she quit that job, and within two years of the career switch, she's making more than her original senior salary, and her second DevOps job was much easier to get than the first one. Companies chose her over computer science graduates with more IT experience. So, what happened in those two [music] years? And why did quitting her first DevOps job after less than a year actually increase her market value instead of destroying it? This is a story of Ana Pedra, and she was willing to share her very inspiring DevOps career journey with [music] me and our community. So, this is full interview with her. But, before we get started, it's important to understand >> [music] >> that there is one thing that most people miss about breaking into DevOps. Anna had multiple cloud certifications before landing her first job offer. She had AWS Cloud Practitioner, Azure certificate, Solutions Architect, all passed. She was applying for jobs consistently, and yet the certifications alone were not enough to get her past the technical interviews. Landing her first job was the most challenging. She failed her early interviews, faced rejections that probably make you question everything and your career choices, but the second job was completely different game, much easier, almost effortless. The question is, what actually bridges that gap to help you land that first-ever job in engineering field, and then what changes between job one and job two? So, in this video, you're going to see Anna's complete journey, but also the complete strategy that she used to become such a successful engineer in such a short period of time. So, not just how to get your first DevOps role, but how to make sure that first role actually sets you up for the second one. And for the next decades of a successful engineering career. You'll understand why certifications don't work alone, why some DevOps jobs limit your career while others accelerate it, what are some interview preparation tips that actually work when you're failing technical rounds, as well as the exact timeline of when things get easier. So, this is not just an inspirational story. This is about understanding the mechanics of career transition, so you can replicate it. Whether you were applying for jobs right now with certifications, but getting nowhere, or you're in your first DevOps role wondering if you made the right choice, and what your career looks like in the future. So, whichever situation you're in right now, you will know exactly what to do next by the end of this video. Let's start with the decision that most people think is crazy. Taking a pay cut to enter a field you have zero experience in. So, I'm Anna. I am Spanish. I come from Barcelona and I studied industrial engineering there and started my career in medical devices. In Switzerland. I I moved from Spain to Switzerland and I started working for big companies in that sector like Johnson & Johnson, Abbott, Jabil. But after Yeah, after many years in that industry, I felt that the tasks were a bit repetitive and yeah, I was craving for more Yeah, for a more challenging work and during that time it was COVID and Yeah, and I think I started then seeing your videos and you know, and I got a lot very inspired and I always wanted to break into tech. And yeah, and I started self-studying. I started with Python, then I did also data science and data engineering postgraduate course and and then I decided to to go deep into DevOps and after watching your videos and Kubernetes and Docker, I decided to do your boot camp. And yeah, and also while doing your boot camp also on the side I was studying for certifications for professional certifications. And and yeah, and applying for jobs and eventually in 2024 I I got my my first job as cloud DevOps at Swisscom, which is a telecommunications company here in Switzerland and and then I moved to my current company Speech that it's an AI company that does speech and analytics and recognition and yet they have like five different products um all related to to speech analytics and and like voice bots. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we install them in in our clients. We have clients in the financial sector also telecommunications, insurance companies. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so let me zoom in in a couple of areas that you mentioned because I think your journey is interesting. So I want to dig deeper into those decision points throughout the journey. So first of all you are in this field which is you know manufacturing engineering for for medical devices and you have this you know years of experience and you decide you want to go into tech which is kind of a new field for you. So at what point or what was the trigger for you to decide you know what this isn't for me anymore. I want to do something different and I want to kind of dive into that. So what was the point and why did you have the trigger? Why did you make that decision? Yeah, I think it was it was a cumulative of things. I have already been working in the medical devices sector for quite a long time. It was like seven eight years. I also have worked for different industries and I saw that the type of job it was kind of the same you know even if I change companies. And I also it was the time during COVID that also bootcamps were very famous you know and I was seeing a lot of stories on the internet from people that they completely switch careers, you know, after doing a boot camp. And I was really, really intrigued by that. And yeah, and I decided to to bet on myself, you know, and the same. And it worked for me. Yeah. Yeah. Did you So, when you made the decision, did you did you think IT is something which is future-proof? I'm going to go into the tech so that I have like a a safe job and career in the future or did you think, you know, this is a highly paid field, you know, the IT professionals are getting paid high. So, what was the um what was what was what was the pragmatic criteria basically for choosing tech in general? And then how did you know how to navigate within tech because there are so many different professions, right? You can be a software developer, you can become a data scientist. So, how do you navigate that initial step of like which profession do I even choose in this IT field? Honestly, at the beginning I was preparing a bit for everything, you know, that's why I did data science, data engineering, you know, but then I realized that yeah, DevOps was like a very strong trend, you know. >> Mhm. And then after ChatGPT came out, you know, and all this revolution, I saw that yeah, DevOps it's one of the more career-proof, you know, future-proof careers that exist. And I'm very happy, you know, that I ended up in this field. And also yeah, it's a field that it's always growing, you know, it's challenging always, you know, you will never get bored, you know, because there are always new tools appearing, you know, and you have constant constantly be learning, yeah. Yeah. And I like it. Did you did you see also any difference in terms of like um monetary difference between where you were working, the the industry, and you know, what type of salaries you could get, let's say, in DevOps or cloud engineering or anything in in tech industry in general. Was that in any way part of your decision? I yes, I did that a bit of research, you know, and I saw that in cloud DevOps roles they were really well paid, but it was more when you had a lot of experience like after 5 years, you know, 3 5 5 years. At the beginning I have to say that my switch is a bit particular because I was coming from a position where I was senior from a career where I was senior, so my salary was pretty good. And indeed, you know, when I did the switch and to my first role to Swisscom, I had to accept a pay cut. But yeah, I thought about it as as an investment because I was really learning a professional skills. And now my current job, I'm making a bit more than my previous senior role, you know, at about at Medical Devices. So yeah, it's already paying off and this is only my second job, you know, in in the field. And I've seen that with years of experience it really sums up, yeah. Oh, interesting. So like initially when you started as a junior, of course, it was like pay cut because you came from a senior position from another field, but then you quickly kind of caught up with the experience. I see. So so I I remember this also from my own experience when I started in tech and IT because I started as a software engineer, and even within the software engineering it was already overwhelming enough. But here you are you're trying to decide, you know, which and you're doing research about like which specific profession to choose. So when you were doing all these data science, you know, tutorials and courses and these other stuff, like what was your thinking? Like did you think like this is all overwhelming? I need to stick to one of the one of them. I need to do a bit more like deeper research. Did you ask any anybody like other people? Did you reach out to make the decision? Or how easy or difficult was it? >> It was more that I was receiving more interviews, you know, when I was looking for my transition job from DevOps, you know, from cloud DevOps. And I think also that helped, you know, also to pull me, you know, and and push me in in that direction. I mean, also there data science and that engineering are very interesting fields. Um But I yeah, I find that DevOps has more different tools, you know, it's yeah, there's more variety, you know, and I like that, you know, that you are You are So you like the challenge as well. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And when you started when you decided, okay, you know, it is a clear trend. I like that it has many tools and and technologies so that I'm going to be challenged and I'm going to stay motivated long-term. And when you made the decision, what was your strategy for learning? Like when you started watching videos and and doing many maybe small courses. Like what did you Did you create like a curriculum or a road map? How did you decide what you need to learn when before before you, you know, either found our videos or decided that you want to join the boot camp? Well, before while I was still working at Abbott at my last medical devices job, I was already preparing and passing my first cloud certifications. I think I already did back then the cloud AWS cloud practitioner and I think I I also did the AZ-900 from Azure. Um Yeah, and then yeah, I think that at the end of that year of 2023, this is when I Yeah, December is when I left my my job at at Abbott. Yeah, I already was starting very deeply cloud cloud providers you like AWS [clears throat] I think I already did the the solutions architect and other more advanced certifications and I think it's also like then when I started with your with your boot camp. So yeah, it was that period you know between end of 2023 beginning 2024 that I was doing this change you know that it was very intense for me because I was sitting interviews with passing and preparing cloud certifications with your boot camp while also building the portfolio so it was all at once. Yeah. But it's very stressful but also I learned a lot. >> [laughter] >> That's the best way to learn right? Intensity high intensity. Okay, I understand your approach. So you you basically started gathering certificates because you also had a proof that you know, you you now know this specific cloud platform and you can you know, do this specific stuff in another cloud platform while you still had a job. So it was kind of a safe way to you know, kind of prepare this stuff. Did you start applying for jobs right away with those certificates like without thinking first to actually do like a proper boot camp? Yes, I think I I applied for data scientist jobs and I yeah, I got I got some interviews but I I didn't manage to yeah to to pass the final round. But yes, at that time also I was seeing that I was more drawn to the devops cloud route you know, then I think I was researching a lot your boot camp or I even started with your boot camp. Now let me explain why Anna's peak heart was not just desperate move. It was logical and strategic. So she was senior in medical devices comfortable salary stable career but she looked at the trajectory. Where would she be in 5 years doing the same repetitive work? Maybe slightly higher salary, same type of work, same limitations. And then compare that to DevOps. Even junior DevOps roles pay competitively, but more importantly, the salary curve is very steep in this industry. With 2 to 3 years of experience, you're making significantly more. With 5 years of experience, you're in high demand globally. And more importantly, the skill set is transferable across industries and countries. So, the calculation was simple. Temporary pay cut for 6 to 12 months, then recover and exceed within 2 years. And that's exactly what happened. She's now on her second DevOps job making more than her original salary as a senior in her previous career before switching to DevOps. But here is what did not work initially. Certifications alone. She passed AWS Cloud Practitioner, Azure or AZ 900 Solutions Architect certificate. And consider that professional certifications take time and money. And she was still struggling to get interviews. And when she did get the interviews, she was not able to pass them. So, the question is, why? Why do certifications not actually help? Simply because certifications prove that you can pass exams, but they don't prove whether you can build production systems or not. And that's what employers actually test in interviews. And that's the skill set that they're looking for. So, she clearly needed something else. Something that would prove that she could actually do the work as a DevOps engineer >> [clears throat] >> once the company hired her. So, the decision to enroll in our DevOps bootcamp. But very important to understand, it was not just doing the DevOps bootcamp. It was how she approached it that actually made the difference. And what makes her story so inspiring. What was the decision like? Like, why did you decide I need guidance, I need structure to learn DevOps? Like, what what was your decision like specifically for doing the DevOps Bootcamp with us? Yeah, I mean, what I found it it's quite overwhelming, you know, the DevOps environment ecosystem. There are so many tools and so many courses. What I really like from your Bootcamp is that it's really structured and it mixes both theory plus hands-on. You know, and you build a really strong portfolio with your six exercises and they are very challenging. And also you prepare for the interviews because you really explain very well all the concepts. And yeah, you can use uh review your theory, you know, and and use how you explain these things for the interviews, for the when you are looking hunting for jobs. Yeah. And what what about before you enrolled? Like, did you did you feel like, you know, I've watched these videos and I've, you know, done some small courses, but I need like a really structured guide or what what did you decide to even enroll before you kind of knew like what was expecting you in the Bootcamp? Do you remember that that reasoning? Before, uh yeah, I mean, I know I know that uh to get a job in DevOps and cloud, I needed I needed three things. I needed certifications, professional certifications. This is something that I was already doing. I needed the concepts, the theory the theoretical concepts very clear and this is something that I yeah, that I had a gap that and I needed reinforce reinforcement. And also I needed a very strong portfolio to show my projects to the interviewers. And so these two last areas I needed help and that's when I was researching on YouTube. Yeah, because on YouTube also you can find good projects. But yeah, sometimes yeah, the problem of YouTube is that many people can find them and probably the interviewers they will find a lot of candidates with the same with the same projects, you know, and you need to stand out somehow. And when I found through your YouTube videos that you had a boot camp, you know, in the box I was really intrigued and then I did some research and I really liked it and I'm very very happy that I finally did that because it really helped me finding Um so our Devops boot camp is pretty intense. Like it also takes a lot of time for someone to dedicate like fully and do all these projects because as you said the the projects are actually challenging because uh you can't like do like two hours and then stop and then come back and do another. Like you're actually building something for or days. Kind of a chain of demos that put ties together because at the end you have this full project. So did you have any goal when you enrolled like you know, I'm going to learn this intensely. I'm going to study. I'm going to dedicate my time and hours because I have these goal to start applying for jobs. Like did you want to How did you balance the speed of learning and making sure you get it done as fast as possible so you can get a job versus the depth of I really want to take my time and learn all the concepts and understand and do all the projects hands on which take time. Like what was the learning journey like for you? Yeah, what how I approach it it was I had like a first I put in play all the videos, you know, to a bit fast like maybe 1.5 or even sometimes two two two fold to have like an overview, you know, I watched the videos passively to have like a weak understanding like an overview of on what were the tools that I was going to use and then I did a second round when I was really doing the exercises then I reviewed many many times, you know, as much times I needed to really understand and grasp the concepts, you know, in order to do the exercises. And also, I did a third round when I had interviews, you know, then I really reviewed that topics, you know, that they were normally asking in the interviews, Kubernetes or Docker or Terraform, so I built that parts, you know, so that all the concepts stick, you know, I had them in my memory so I could explain them Mhm. when they asked me. Did you did you learn like every single day like multiple hours or did you like did you have free time actually to do the boot camp full time? I mean, yeah, during that time, yeah, I as I say, it was pretty intense and I was doing yeah, multiple things. I was doing the boot camp and I also I was preparing certifications, cloud certifications and I didn't socialize that much, you know. >> [laughter] >> I mean, you have to sacrifice something, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me pause here. Anna just revealed the complete framework, what I call the triple proof strategy. And this is what actually gets you hired when you have no DevOps experience. So, proof one is certifications. What they prove is you invested time and money, you studied foundational concepts, you passed standardized tests. So, it definitely proves your dedication and knowledge of fundamentals. What they don't prove is whether you can build anything in practice. So, here comes proof number two, structured learning, similar to boot camp. What it proves is you followed a complete curriculum start to finish. You learn in the right order, you built integrated projects, not just isolated demos of individual technologies, and what it gives you is conceptual understanding, so the why behind configurations, as well as big picture overview of all the tools and concepts which are part of DevOps, which is, by the way, the skill set that usually mid-level to senior engineers have exclusively because it takes a lot of time and experience to build that knowledge by yourself. Proof number three is portfolio projects because that's what proves what employers and companies are actually looking for, which is the fact that you can actually build production grade systems, that you have practical experience. It proves that you understand how tools integrate in practice. You have solved real problems. You have built systems in real environments with real infrastructure. You have troubleshooted and fixed the issues when things went wrong. And what it helps you with is interview conversations because when you present project portfolio that showcases your practical skills, it actually invites the interviewers or the employer to ask the questions like walk me through this project, explain to me what this project does and how it's built and why you built it this way. So the interview actually becomes discussion around the projects that you have built that showcase your actual practical knowledge. Now here's an important part that I want to highlight. Anna's three-pass or three-round learning method. And this was very inspiring for me. So this is basically how she approached learning itself, what strategy she used when doing the DevOps boot camp. So she did it in three rounds. Round number one was for big picture understanding. So she got the full overview by watching videos at 1.5 or two x speed to basically build the mental framework. See what tools exist, how they connect, what are the concepts and technologies in DevOps and how are they connected to each other on a high-level big picture view. So not memorizing any code or configuration or syntax of Kubernetes and Dockerfile, just understanding the entire ecosystem and how things are connected. And then round two was for hands-on knowledge, actually building all the projects. So she went through the DevOps boot which, by the way, is 80 to 85% hands-on projects and only 15% theory. So, she followed all the demo projects and built all of them hands-on, which naturally meant that she was building her project portfolio. And this is where the most fundamental and solid learning actually happened. This is where the most time gets invested, most focus is needed, but this is where you learn the most. When pipelines broke, troubleshooting them, when configurations failed, understanding why while fixing them, using our support to immediately find the issue and the fix. And this entire round of learning by building things, not just theory, laid the actual foundation of her DevOps expertise and knowledge. And number three was for interviews, which was reviewing specific topics that employers would test, practicing how to explain concepts out loud after having understood the big picture, but also the individual implementation details of end-to-end projects. So, basically transforming all that knowledge, theoretical and practical knowledge, into communication ability. Now, some people do around one only. A lot of people do round two, but almost nobody does round three. So, that is literally the extra step or extra mile that she went through to really nail her knowledge, but also be able to communicate it most effectively during the interviews. And notice the sacrifice. But and I know this from my own experience, but I still find it very inspirational when I hear such stories. She literally did not socialize for 6 months. She had full focus on her goals and learning, no half measures and half doing things. And it makes sense because here's the reality. You cannot learn DevOps deeply while maintaining your entire social calendar and maybe some other full-time responsibilities on the side and just doing one or two hours on the weekend of casual learning because deep learning requires sustained focus. The good news is that you only need to do that for a short period of time. So that sacrifice is temporary. It's literally just six months of intense focus. It's not years, but that's the trade and it works because after those six months, you have all three proofs. You're not just another candidate with certifications. You are someone who can demonstrate structured learning and ability to actually build things, which is the only thing that employers care about. Those certificates, even the project portfolios, everything is just to prove that you can actually build something. Now let's see how her strategy played out in actual interviews. So Anna had her triple proof strategy in place. Certifications, the boot camp completion with integrated projects, portfolio on GitHub. So she started applying for jobs. And this is where most people will discover that getting interviews and passing interviews are completely different challenges. So let me show exactly what that means. Mhm. Um okay, so let's talk about the interview part. So you know, you complete at least some part of the boot camp. You are already applying for jobs. Uh you're doing all these careers, you know, the the cloud certifications on the side like too much intense stuff going on. Um so you were landing interviews, I'm assuming at this point because you were you actually were, you know, collecting all these certificates and you're building your project portfolio. But how were the interviews like? Like when you were going to the interview, like did you feel confident? Did you answer the questions? You know, did you feel like, okay, there's still something I'm missing. I need to go back and learn more. Like what was the first stage uh or phase of those interviews like? >> I mean I was surprised that they were very technical, but as I said you covered all the topics that they were asking and yeah, probably the first interview that I did I didn't do it that well, but I think it's also like a skill, you know, like doing interviews >> Yeah. is a skill and you improve, you know, while you do more and more. And then I remember that the first interviews like I was collecting, you know, all these intel, you know, writing down the questions that they were asking and then I was rereading all the parts, you know, from your boot camp and then I was preparing, you know, the right answers and then after yeah, I was doing it much much better, yeah. Do you remember any challenging or like difficult technical questions that they asked you like a little bit later once you had learned everything from, let's say, the DevOps boot camp, you had completed all the stuff and then you were like prepared and they asked you like some either technical deeply technical question or maybe architecture question and you were able to reply it with confidence, like you knew that you answered it perfectly. Did Did you remember any such question? >> Many questions about Kubernetes can be very challenging and I remember yeah, that thanks to your boot camp yeah, I was pretty confident and answering them. Did Did you remember Do you remember the questions specifically what they asked? No, I mean it's been a long time, >> [laughter] >> more than one year. But yeah, I remember that that they were challenging, yeah. They they can ask you about the architecture and also maybe how you would you troubleshoot that issue, you know, things like this, you know, like see this scenario-based situational, they can be tricky questions to answer, I would say. Yeah. But you need to prove that you have experience, you know, to answer them. >> And what about because you didn't have like a DevOps working experience, but you like you didn't even have experience to work as a you know, server administrator or software engineer. So how did you how did you fill that gap? Do you think that because DevOps is not an entry-level position in IT, right? So, companies would usually require some kind of pre-existing IT experience. So, how do you think you managed to get those interviews and convince those potential employers to see, you know, I actually have this knowledge that you you need even though I don't have the experience. How did you bridge that gap do you think? >> Yeah, I think showing that I have completed a boot camp a DevOps boot camp. This is like a social proof. And also people recognize you. You know, I remember that when I was applying and then when I was talking with interviewers, they they know who you are, you know, from your videos from YouTube. So, yeah. So, yeah, that's good. I I usually tell students to actually include it in their CV, to include it in the LinkedIn profile because, you know, when people know, okay, you actually did the boot camp from from us, especially if you were applying at a technical company like they would actually know the the name. So, it's actually beneficial. But, it's good to to hear. It's amazing. >> Yeah. And also yeah, the projects. I mean, you have to send your CV and your CV normally you have a link to your GitHub, so they can see your projects, you know, beforehand. And that, you know, the projects if you can explain them confidently, you know, then they know that you know your stuff and also the certifications, the professional certifications because they are tough to get. I think if you have these three things, like the DevOps boot camp, yeah, it was super useful for me because I I don't have a computer science background, you know? But, also I find that they don't really teach DevOps, you know, if you study computer science. So, the only way to really learn it is either by the job, you know, if you have the experience or through a boot camp like yours. Yeah, or self-study. But, yeah, if you self-study it's a bit difficult to really show, you know, that you have the level enough, you know, to work later as a DevOps. >> Yeah, that's a really good point. So, you can't have a traditional degree in DevOps. That's that's current at least currently it's not possible. So, you have to have it either from self-learning or from experience or like a like a boot camp or a professional program. So, you sent your DevOps portfolio along with your applications to kind of showcase your skills, right? Did they ask you questions about your projects that you sent them? Yeah, they always ask. Yes. They always ask. Three words that prove everything that I said before. Every single interview they asked about her projects. Not do you have projects, but explain this project. Walk me through your architecture decisions. Why did you configure it this way? And here is what this means. Your portfolio is your real resume. The CV may get you an interview or it may just put you in the pile of 100 other candidates who have CVs that look very similar to yours. And I'm talking specifically about those who are just entering the engineering career, who are just trying to land their first DevOps job. So, once you get past that initial stage and you actually land an interview, they will not pull up your CV. They will pull up your GitHub or GitLab account. They will look at your repositories, your projects, and they will ask you to explain what you built. And this is exactly where random tutorials and cheap courses fail you. Because if you copy-pasted a project without understanding it, you can't answer these questions. Like, why did you use this approach? Or what architecture decisions did you make here? What alternatives did you consider? Or how would you handle this differently in production? And more importantly, if you did some crash courses, including ours by the way, on YouTube or some, you know, quick and cheap Udemy courses, your projects are going to be basic and simple. They will not be applicable to production environments. If you have a Terraform project from a small course that just provisions a few easy to instances on AWS, there is not much discussion that is going to evolve out of that during the interview because it's not a complex production grade project that you have built with some architecture decisions. But, if you build projects through a structured boot camp that took you through end-to-end projects with an array of tools involved and integrated with each other for complex scenarios. Plus, while building those projects, you actually understood all the concepts, the configuration details, why you made certain configurations, what decisions were involved every step of that building phase, then you can explain everything in detail during the interview because you understand what decisions were made, you understand entire project from a high-level perspective, the architecture decisions, the design because I literally explained everything in detail while building the projects in the Devops boot camp. So, when you have that combination of a very complex production grade project that your interviewer is analyzing and basing their interview questions on, but you also understand exactly what was built, how, and every single line of configuration was explained to you, then you're going to be able to answer whatever questions they ask you about the project, which is automatically a proof that you worked on those projects, you built those projects even though it was provided by us as an educational material. Now, there is one thing that Anna said that I want to highlight here. She said they don't really teach Devops in computer science, which is true, at least currently. Computer science degrees cover algorithms and data structures, maybe some networking basics, programming obviously, but they don't teach Kubernetes or Terraform, CI/CD pipelines, infrastructure as code. And there different reasons for that. One of them is they just can't catch up with the curriculum, and second, it's really difficult to find practitioners who are actually teaching those technologies in universities, but these tools and skills are usually learned on the job or through a specialized trainings like our DevOps bootcamp. So, you don't get them in a official computer science degree, which means that if you have computer science graduates applying for DevOps roles, they're are competing against you who did a structured DevOps bootcamp, which teaches you exactly those skills that employers are looking for, they actually have a disadvantage because they don't have that knowledge despite their computer science degree. So, once they land the job, they will be learning all these from scratch in many cases. And as I said, the bootcamp projects will be more relevant than their degree in many cases because your portfolio will demonstrate more practical knowledge than their theoretical coursework. >> [music] >> Did they ask you to explain like, okay, why you know, what is this configuration or why did you do it this way? So, to to make sure that they that So, it's proof one they actually look at your portfolio because otherwise they would not know what to ask, and second that they, uh, you know, even if you have the same project as someone else, they can still test you, um, whether you understand what the project means because you can you could have copied it from the internet, right? So, they need a proof that you understand what it is. Okay, so, once you once you got the job, uh, by the way, did you feel good about the interview, about the from the job that you, um, received afterwards? Like, did you actually feel during the interview that you did a good job? >> Yes. And normally they are tricky because I remember that for my current job, I not only did one interview. I think in the end they were like three or four. So, they were so, yeah, it was quite a long process. But yeah, yeah, I felt I felt confident and yeah, I felt positive. And Did you have it with different people or did you did they just increase the the complexity of the questions and interviews? >> Um yeah, I had it with a couple of people and also with my yeah, current manager a couple of times. Yes. Mhm. Okay. Yeah, I find that I mean, I cannot really say because I I didn't experience it before, but it is what I read that I find that now as the job market is very challenging. Yeah, the process it's more and more difficult and there are more rounds than they used to be and also the difficulty, you know, on the interviews is much higher than what it used to be. >> Yeah, especially for You know it because you know probably you know it because you have experienced it before COVID, no? And Yeah. Well, how how it was for you? Yeah, when when you got your first job, it was very challenging to So for me as a software developer, software engineer, it was not challenging at all because I think when I started years ago, software engineering was still super highly demanded. Like DevOps engineering was not even a term back then when I started my IT career. Like platform engineering, DevOps engineering like didn't exist. Even I remember when I did my internship as a programmer, as a software developer, it was a it was a pretty large company actually. It was a big software development company and we had one room in this entire building. Like one tiny room and there was one engineer there who was doing cloud. And that was it. Like there was nobody knew like what was cloud engineering. Like we had our servers were actually in the building. So there was this team who were managing like the actual physical servers. So it was completely different landscape to be honest. Like I I could get a job as a junior or like mid-level software engineer within a week with like one or two rounds maximum. So, I think this has become very challenging for software engineers. For DevOps engineers, it's it's challenging because you need a previous experience. So, if you are uh right now because you already work as a DevOps engineer. So, for you to get the next DevOps engineering job will be or or you are doing MLops, it's going to be way, way easier than the first round because the first round they see you don't have any experience um in IT or in DevOps, so they test you way more. But, when once you reach the mid-level seniority level, then it becomes way easier. So, I think it it has become more difficult for juniors, but it's become easier for the mid-level or senior engineers. That's why getting your first foot in the door and getting your first job is so important and then afterwards everything just becomes uh easier and smoother for years in the in the future. So, um yeah. >> true. That's true. My advice is that uh as a junior or as a career switcher, you need to really prepare a lot now. And yeah, you need proof um as many proof as you can through certificates, through your boot camp, through projects. But, uh yeah, projects that stand out that are not the normal projects, you know, that anybody can uh can obtain, you know, like watching a video on YouTube or Udemy course, you know, like Also, yeah, they value like unique projects. I remember that I did some hackathons, you know, and also they they really like that, you know, that because they are really, really unique that you build in one weekend. Or even if you try to do a startup or something and if it fails, also you can use that, you know, as a project to explain, you know, during during an interview and they really like it because yeah, It that you have yeah, initiative. Yeah, that even if you could manage to get a user base, people are really impressed with that. Yeah. >> Mhm. I think this is really good advice because basically, so it shows that you are interested and curious and you are doing a lot of things as you were doing like, you know, getting the cloud certificates and do, you know, doing this project and that project, but also instead of sending a demo project that shows you you know, setting up a basic AWS infrastructure with Terraform. Of course, you will stand out if you have like this end-to-end CCNA pipeline configured with Kubernetes and and Argo CD or whatever like the entire project in your uh demo project. So, it's way better to have one very deep uh technical project than have like hundred simple projects, right? Here's my simple Ansible. Here's my simple Terraform and all of them kind of detached from each other. Um so, I think yeah, I think that's a really good advice to have projects that stand out and are not just like copy-paste from some simple demos from internet. And this is also why the triple proof strategy works so well because certifications show foundational study. So, you invested your time in learning to acquire those certificates. The bootcamp shows structured learning and a portfolio that you build from bootcamp or the training shows that you can actually build things. And together, this combination of proof overcome the no IT experience barrier. And the proof is that Anna got multiple offers. So, she proved that it works. Now came the decision that most people get wrong. Which offer should you accept? And this is where understanding your first DevOps job as a strategic stepping stone of your future career, not as a destination, becomes critical. >> [music] >> Another thing that I'm curious about is you you get this job and it's your first job first day at your job like you need to join this DevOps team. Like did you feel nervous? Did you feel anxious? Like am I actually going to be able to do anything at this job? Like you know these are engineers with more experience. I've never had this job like I've never done this actually in practice. Yeah, I mean of course and yeah, I think this is normal. I think a lot of juniors now go through that. It only gets better with experience I would say, you know, that you're feeling more confident in your skills and yeah, you have to keep pushing keep doing tickets and then yeah, you're growing then this confidence, you know, by experience. Yeah, and did you have a mentor when you joined? Like did you did you get proper onboarding? Did you get just thrown into cold water and like this is our Jira board just take whatever DevOps ticket and do it or how was the No, yeah, yeah, had a like a colleague, you know, who showed me yeah, like a mentor we could say yes. >> Mhm. Was it a was it a DevOps engineer himself? Yes, yes. And did you do like pair programming at the beginning or did you actually start okay? Or what was your first impression of like, you know, I can do this stuff like I I know how to configure this I don't know if they used a Kubernetes cluster or Terraform, but you know, feeling like, you know, I'm doing this pair programming with you, but I can do this alone or I can I can take over this task and I can do this thing or did you still feel like cautious and and little bit anxious about it? >> I think depends on the ticket, you know, because ticket they they can touch different topics, you know, and there are topics that you feel more confident or you have more experience with them or you have seen in the past. Yeah, depends on the topic I would say. Yeah. Okay, so there were some tasks where did you remember the examples of both like where you had a ticket where you said okay, I can actually handle this. I'm going to do it alone versus ticket where you're like I don't know how to do this. I've never done this before. I'd rather not touch it. >> And what do you do when you don't know? Then you have to check, you know, the confluence, you know, the knowledge base that they have to see if you can find something similar. If with that is not sufficient, then you have to ask help to a colleague, you know, and work together with him to to resolve the issue. If you remember exactly which project knowledge or or which hands-on projects from the Devil's Bootcamp you could actually apply directly in your projects at work. Yeah, I mean, all the ones that they were regarding containerization, Docker, Docker Compose, image registries, I use it every day at work. Also, Terraform, Ansible, also AWS. You explained, yeah, EC2, Route 53. This is something that I'm using every day. Lots of Kubernetes as well, GitHub, yeah, Git or GitLab. So, Anna got her first DevOps job at Swisscom. Great company, telecommunications, stable. She was nervous at first, which is completely normal, but the bootcamp knowledge was directly applicable at her work. Docker, Kubernetes, Terraform, AWS, she was using all these technologies every day. Now, most people would stay in this job for two to three years minimum, build experience, not job hop, because it looks bad on your resume, right? Well, Anna left after less than a year, and this decision, most recruiters would call a mistake, actually doubled her market value. Here is why. Basically, currently you are working as an MLOps engineer, right? Which is probably one of the most, like within the cloud and DevOps realm, one of the most highly demanded, but also like growing in demand IT professions. So, tell me what happened between your first DevOps engineering job and becoming an MLOps engineer, which which is what you're doing currently. Well, the thing is that I mean, probably it's more DevOps, I would say. It's DevOps but as I'm working for an AI company, you know, we are also, yeah, helping with AI pipelines, but I would I would describe more my my work as DevOps that say cops engineer either I know that I have it that on my LinkedIn, but yeah, I I would I would say that it's more DevOps, yeah. Um so, how did that transition happen? Like did you did you switch uh the company? Did you change the the role? Or why did you make why why did you decide to uh make that change in the first place? Yeah, because on my first company at Swisscom, I was a bit unlucky that uh they wanted me specifically to manage OpenStack, which is a private cloud, and they wanted me and another person to be the responsibles for this um tool, for this technology, and yeah, I didn't enjoy it that much because I wanted to work with other technologies. It's true that I was able to do some projects uh with Kubernetes, Prometheus, and also I think AWS EKS, but it was like 15% of my time, and I wanted to do that more often. And that's why I decided to change companies uh to my current company, where I yeah, in my current company, I'm doing yeah, I'm touching Kubernetes every day and Docker and public cloud every day. So, yeah, I'm happy with my current role. Yeah, I think this is also fantastic piece of advice for people out there because you basically and this this is a perfect example of how to choose jobs, not only be desperate and just get whatever job comes your way, but also be picky because what projects you work on and which company you work for can actually also define where you what chances you get in the future because you decided there's this private cloud that, you know, nobody else will use in their companies, and I'm using like 80% of my time working on that while I could be learning and practicing the skills that I learned for the actual DevOps world which is, you know, Terraform, Kubernetes, and so on. So, let me join a project where I could use and develop those skills which is very smart and valid decision because that's what counts towards your job experience. So, it's not just the number of years that you've worked as a DevOps engineer, but also like what did you do in those years? Like which tools you worked with? So, when when you made that choice, did you did you feel secure and confident that you're going to get another job? Like it's not a problem at all, so you were not actually risking anything by going to another project or by seeking a new job? Yeah, I mean I was confident on my skills and I had your boot camp. I also already had some certifications. And at that time as well, I think I passed my first my first Kubernetes certification, the CKA, and I I saw that this certification was very on demand, so yeah, I was confident on my skills and yeah. Mhm. And then you applied and and how how easy was it for you to get the second job? >> much easier, you know, the second time after having this experience, you know, from my first job, it was much easier. Yeah, I have to say that. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's amazing. So, the interviews probably also went much much smoother. And when you joined the second company, so this is where you're working right now, right? That's the current work. What was the entry also different and smoother and easier like to get onboarded and to get started with the team and with the the projects new setup and what technologies they they used? Like did you feel confident like, yeah, I know where to find all this stuff and how to get started, so to say? Yeah, yeah, because I had experience from the previous company that they were also using Jira. So, so there were a lot of overlaps, you know, of things that I have already seen. So, it was much easier, I would say. Yeah, the onboarding and everything. >> Nice. So, tell me how your day-to-day looks like right now. So, you know, you wake up in the morning. Uh, I don't know if you go to work or just log in online. Like, what what does your day look like as a DevOps engineer at this company working with all these tools? Yes, so we start the day doing a daily stand-up. Uh, we have these 15-minutes meeting where we discuss uh, the main problems or, yeah, and also which tasks we will focus on, you know, the rest of the day. And uh, also we receive tickets, you know, from Jira, and we are basically uh, completing these Jira tickets. And uh, yeah. And these Jira tickets are part of big projects, you know, for different clients. Yeah. Yeah, my company has many clients and yeah, each client uh, requires different technologies, you know, so it's really really a varied um, yeah, skills, you know, that I'm using in this in this job. Yeah. So, what what what does like an array of typical tasks look like for you? For example, yeah, that an application is not working and I have to investigate why, then I have to SSH into the server uh, with the terminal and I have to look at the the logs and yeah, find what what is wrong. Yeah. Mhm. Is it uh, in the Kubernetes cluster? Uh, so are you SSHing into the worker nodes or is it just a EC2 instance? EC2 instance, yeah. Okay. You know, do you work a lot with automation? Like Terraform, Ansible, even like CICD auto automations and this type of stuff as well? >> Yeah, we're using a lot Terraform and also Ansible as well. And at the moment as well in parallel, I'm I'm studying and I'm preparing for the um, Red Hat uh, certified engineer. Yeah, which is like an actual certification. So, you're continuing, like you're not you didn't stop learning just because you got a job and you could learn a job but you're like adding on top of it. But you are using the it's also perfect combination because you're using your job practice so you can actually use those tools at work while also using that knowledge to get the certificate so that you have the proof in addition to the work uh uh work experience. As I said, you could be working on a project that doesn't use Ansible or Terraform and still be a DevOps engineer so it doesn't prove that you actually know these technologies. So the certificate kind of does that. >> [music] >> When did you do DevSecOps? Uh did you complete it by the way or did you uh do part of it? I still have to finish some of the exercises but this is on my to-do list and I want to do it this month. Sorry for that. But I I mean I I did all the all the boot camp. I uh I read uh and I saw all the videos. Yeah. And uh yeah and I used a lot of the part of Istio yeah for work because we had to implement Istio and yeah it was super useful. Yeah I mean uh with the exercises I mean uh I I did I think a couple and and they were super challenging and I learned a lot uh and yeah I'm sure that when I finish uh the boot camp yeah I will have yeah improved the skills you know on security. Yeah. Do you actually so since you already have watched all the videos so you know like what type of projects are uh included? Do you see a lot of the technologies and a lot of the concepts from DevSecOps you know like SAST and and DAST and all this stuff? Does your company actually implement those already or do you see that they want to implement them or like what is what does the theory and and reality kind of look like? >> Uh yes I they are implementing. Yeah they are improving you know uh with security like Istio as we did and also yeah full vulnerabilities. I can I can recommend you know approaches things to your boot camp. Yeah, it's it's really useful. >> Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to ask you two final questions. The first one is we have a lot of people who come with non-tech background who want to break into IT or specifically devops because that's why they come to us, but a lot of people have either this fear of you know, I don't know either if it's really worth the effort that I'm going to put in or I don't like I'm not 100% confident that I can actually make it like with enough effort that I I'm actually going to be able to tackle this and I'm going to be able to succeed in this role. What what would you tell these people? Like anything that you also had as a myth at the beginning that kind of dissolved once you became experienced like looking back thinking like what was I thinking like it's actually different. Like what what what would you how would you encourage these people? Yeah, I think that if you're really motivated and willing to put the hours you can become whatever you want. And yeah, take me as an example, you know, before I was scared of the terminal, you know, I didn't know what it was >> [laughter] >> and now in my current job I'm using the terminal every day, you know, every day. So yeah, I also used to think that what you studied at university really yeah guided you or or or you know, set in stone your career, you know, your future your future job and this is not true especially in tech where where yeah, computer science doesn't cover, you know, because it's so broad yeah, tech that computer science is really the foundation and doesn't cover many professions. So you have to really study by yourself or with a boot camp, you You or through experience. And yeah, if you manage to get a good program, you know, like your boot camp that has everything, you know, like they prepare the theory, they prepare you to have a very strong portfolio, and they prepare you for the interviews. Then yeah, you can with that you can really manage to find your first job in the industry. And then yeah, then it's yeah, grabbing experience, you know, from from your job, maybe getting deeper in with DevSecOps, or studying cloud certifications, you know, if you want to get deeper in some area. Yeah, and that's it, I would say. Yeah, just yeah, getting experience and yeah, improving. And final question, a lot of people do not like they can't sustain the motivation to especially at the beginning to learn so many different things at once because they they they want to feel comfortable first. Like they they they're afraid of this extra challenge. Like you had this intense few months where you were you know, learning all these things and you were applying for jobs and going to interviews. So, how would you encourage those people to kind of change the perspective a little bit to think, "Okay, this is your few months of intense work for in exchange of like years in the future of if you want that comfort." But like how do you encourage them to actually keep learning, like keep investing in their knowledge, keep keep staying curious and not feel like I'm I'm just going to learn the minimum required to kind of get in and that's it and then I'm set and I'm not going to continue developing and growing. >> I would say that everybody has enough time, you know, to learn new things. That people should audit, you know, how they spend their day and they will discover that probably they waste their time sometimes with social media, you know, scrolling yeah, don't scroll scrolling on social media or maybe watching too much Netflix. And yeah, if you change uh these small habits, you know, how you spend your free time, and instead of spending 4 hours watching Netflix, you study uh prepare for your future, you do a project that day, or you study Kubernetes, that concept, and you are consistent, you know, in 3 months or whatever months you need, you will really have a change, you know, you will have something tangible that you can show the world, you know, and that can potentially change your professional life. So, yeah, people should be yeah, should should be very aware, you know, on how they spend their time and should be more intentional, you know, on what uh they want to spend their time with. Yeah, I would say that people people underestimate, you know, what uh they can do in 6 months, you know, with intentional focus, with a goal. >> Yeah, I I I like that. Uh I really like that. So, intentional being intentional with your targets and do not because especially in DevOps, like everything feels overwhelming. Like, you know, when you when you even look at the curriculum, it's like, "Oh my god, like there's so much to learn." But if you take it in bite-sized uh pieces, right, and just do it consistently step by step, and I love your advice of like just audit your day and see like you you probably going to find a few hours uh in a week where you can learn, and then being intentional about it instead of just kind of being overwhelmed and and and kind of uh drifting along. I love that. And also, I think that also it's important to choose a good program because what happens is that in DevOps, it's quite overwhelming because you can find information from very different sources. But if you manage to find a real good program, you know, that has everything that you need, like your boot camp. Also, you save a lot of time, you know, otherwise you have to maybe watch four different courses, hundreds of YouTube videos, and you will learn as well, but you will probably waste more time, you know, for the same Yeah, outcome. Yeah, thanks for that input, by the way. Thanks for that feedback. I'm happy that you found our program and that our program found you, but that's exactly why we even exist, like why our company has has been existing and actually seeing the demand from the market for so many years and and we're seeing no decline in that because we like very clearly there is a demand for people to learn this in a structured way because otherwise they either waste time or they lose a lot of time and month, which then again, you know, is deducted from, you know, you could be in your career 6 month further if you actually save those 6 month now. So, yeah, thanks thanks for that feedback. Yeah, and I think also it's demotivating probably, you know, if you are spending a lot of time and not seeing like a clear progress, you know, Yeah. it can be demotivating and yeah, and maybe you are tempted to give up. But, yeah, if you have like a a goal, you know, like you want this certification, you know, or you want to complete this boot camp or complete this project, something tangible, it's easier, I think, to stick to the plan, yeah. Perfect. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I love I love this interview, actually. Yeah, thanks a lot for your insights. I I found out a lot because I'm always curious, especially those students that stand out, I always see the same pattern, which is they're always curious, they are they love the challenge, like they don't run away from it, they actually run towards it. They're like, I love that it, you know, it's it's so challenging so that it actually keeps me interested and motivated. So, I see that same pattern very clearly in you as well and I think this interview will be even more inspiring for a lot of people in addition to the blog article that we published. So, thanks again for doing it. >> Thank you. And yeah, I also wanted to mention that recently I started a YouTube channel about yeah, I don't know if you know but I I became golden cubstranaut this summer and I'm the first one the first person in Switzerland and also the first woman in Spain. >> That's amazing. Congratulations. That's really cool. I started this series you know on helping people how to become cubstranaut and yeah, I just started like the free the three first chapters and yeah, my my channel is cloud devops with Anna and >> Okay. if Cloud devops with Anna. We yeah, we're going to share this with community as well. Yeah, that's amazing. That's so cool. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I'm now that I have this first experience with YouTube I I have to tell you that there's a lot of work. I was not expecting >> [laughter] >> Yeah, creating creating educational content is a lot of work. Yeah. >> Yeah. But you can be really really proud of yourself. Like this is amazing. Really cool. Well done. Let me give you a summary of Anna's timeline. Less than two years from pay cut to exceeding her senior salary in her previous industry. From scared of the terminal to golden cubstranaut. From failing interviews to teaching others on YouTube. That is a remarkable journey in such a short period of time. So, what made it all work? Three things. The triple proof strategy that I mentioned before because certifications alone failed. So, boot camp plus portfolio plus certifications together worked had the most impact because all three pieces proved that she could do the job. Then the interview intelligence system, for her, the failed interviews became data, data points. So, she collected the questions, she saw what she could answer, what what she needed more preparation for, and each interview made the next one easier. And the third one was the strategic tech tech choice. She recognized in the first job that she was working mostly with the technology that was not an industry standard, so she switched jobs to work with technologies that were mostly used in most projects worldwide. So, she chose to work with tools and build expertise in the tools that are actually highly demanded by the industry, which again is Docker, Kubernetes, CI/CD tools, CI/CD platforms, and so on. Versus something that the first company was using, but was much less popular. And as you saw, second job was much easier because her experience was globally relevant. And here's what Anna said that matters most here. People underestimate what they can do in 6 months with intentional focus. 6 months of boot camp, less than 2 years total of career switch from literal zero to an experienced, highly valuable engineer. A complete career transformation in 2 years. And as I said, the first DevOps job is brutal. It is difficult and the most challenging one. She proved that. But the second job is much easier. So, the question is not whether this path works. Anna is a living proof that it does. Question is, if you decide to do it, if you're really motivated to do it, will you audit how you spend your time and make the strategic choices of how to allocate your time and focus and energy, and will you execute the road map to achieve the same results and avoid all the mistakes that she showcased in this interview? And as you saw, the certification trap is real, the portfolio power is real, the strategic company switching is important, and Anna simply followed this proven system with intentional focus. And as I said, if this inspires you, but also gives you a clear actionable road map of what to do next, now it's your move to decide whether you are going to do it or not. I really hope this was helpful for you. Let me know what was your biggest takeaway from this, and what you are going to do as your next action step based on that. Write it in the comments below. And with that, thanks for sticking till the end, and I'll see you in the next video.
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