Lessons from 15,031 hours of coding live on Twitch with Chris Griffing [Podcast #214]

[00:00] Welcome back to the freecodecamp [00:01] podcast. I'm Quincy Larson, teacher and [00:03] founder of freecodecamp.org. Today, I'm [00:05] interviewing a developer who has [00:07] live-streamed himself programming for [00:09] more than 15,000 hours on Twitch and the [00:12] many lessons he's learned along the way. [00:14] Before we get to that, some quick [00:15] community news. Freecodecamp just [00:17] published a comprehensive course that [00:18] will walk you through using the popular [00:20] AI assisted development tool Claude [00:22] Code. You'll learn about code harnesses, [00:24] agentic loops, sandboxing, and other key [00:26] concepts straight from a CTO. By the end [00:29] of the course, you'll be able to spin up [00:30] an entire fleet of agents to help you [00:32] fix bugs and build out new features. [00:34] This is a free 12-hour course on the [00:36] freecodecamp YouTube channel. Finish [00:38] listening to this podcast first, but [00:39] certainly go over and check out that [00:41] course as well. We also published a [00:43] comprehensive course on the Hugging Face [00:45] tool ecosystem. No, that is not [00:47] something from aliens. It is a popular [00:50] platform for sharing models, and you'll [00:52] learn how to connect those models, data [00:53] sets, and deployment tools into a single [00:56] unified build pipeline in this free [00:58] 7-hour YouTube course. [01:00] We also published a handbook that's [01:04] free, as with everything we do, [01:06] where you can learn how to secure your [01:08] Kubernetes clusters. This is an in-depth [01:10] tutorial that starts by exploring [01:12] real-world security breaches at big tech [01:15] companies like Tesla, Shopify, Capital [01:17] One. Then it walks you through how to [01:19] prevent each of these attacks by [01:20] hardening your setup. It's a great [01:22] series of case studies, and it takes [01:23] about an hour to read this if you're a [01:25] native English speaker. Next, if you're [01:27] not a native English speaker, but you're [01:29] a Spanish speaker or you have [01:31] Spanish-speaking friends, tell them that [01:33] freecodecamp just published a new course [01:35] on SQL and relational databases. It [01:38] covers tables, foreign keys, queries, [01:40] data manipulation, and more, all in the [01:43] Spanish language. And yes, the [01:44] instructor, Sergey, actually looked like [01:46] this. He's an absolute badass. If you're [01:48] looking at the video version of this [01:50] podcast, the guy looks awesome, and he's [01:53] a great instructor. Today's song of the [01:55] week is 1988 song by Genesis side [01:59] project Mike and the Mechanics Nobody's [02:01] Perfect. If you like synths, if you like [02:03] guitar solos, you'll love this song. [02:05] Paul Young has an incredible voice and I [02:07] love the edifying message behind the [02:09] song. The video is about as 80s as it [02:11] gets and if you're watching the video [02:13] version of this podcast, please pause to [02:16] admire the incredible record cover art. [02:19] Uh both uh two of the band members [02:21] their dads had died during the recording [02:23] of the album. And so if you look at the [02:24] album cover, it's essentially one man [02:26] who's reached kind of the edge, the [02:28] shore, and he's no longer able to [02:30] progress and then kind of inside him is [02:34] another man who is continuing to walk [02:36] forward into the darkness. Really [02:38] profound, one of my favorite album [02:39] covers. [02:40] freeCodeCamp is a 501c3 charity. We're [02:43] tax exempt and you can make [02:45] tax-deductible donations to our charity [02:48] and help us keep moving, keep creating [02:51] these free open-source learning [02:52] resources for everyone. Support our [02:54] mission at donate.freecodecamp.org [02:57] and you can also rep the freeCodeCamp [02:58] community with pride. Get one of these [03:00] freeCodeCamp shirts for 20 bucks, free [03:01] shipping anywhere in the US, or you can [03:04] print your own. Just use our label, uh [03:06] use our logo. Uh it's free for [03:08] non-commercial use. Go to our assets [03:10] library on GitHub and you can get that. [03:12] That brings me to today's interview. [03:14] We're talking with Chris Griffin, a [03:16] software engineer and prolific streamer [03:18] of live coding on Twitch. He spent 10 [03:20] years as a snowboard bum, essentially [03:22] doing odd jobs around ski resorts to [03:24] facilitate him spending as much time on [03:26] the mountain as possible. We're going to [03:27] talk a little bit about snowboarding, [03:29] which is one of my hobbies, uh but [03:30] certainly one of his core interests. At [03:32] age 28, he taught himself PHP [03:34] programming and started building [03:35] websites for friends. And in 2018, he [03:38] started streaming himself on Twitch, uh [03:40] which blew up during the pandemic and [03:41] has led to lots of opportunities as a [03:43] dev and a developer advocate. We talk [03:45] about how he learned programming at age [03:46] 28 and built projects, uh how he uh [03:50] learned Go and how that made him a [03:52] better Rust developer and why he [03:53] encourages you to also become a polyglot [03:56] programmer. How Chris uses LLM tools, [03:59] but still builds most of his code bases [04:01] manually, and his tips for building [04:02] projects in public for anyone interested [04:05] in also streaming coding. If you want to [04:07] get started streaming coding, I did it [04:08] for a while, it's a lot of fun. It is [04:10] scary, but uh, we're going to hear more [04:12] about that right now. Chris Griffing, [04:14] welcome to the freeCodeCamp podcast. [04:16] Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be [04:17] here. Yeah, man, I've really enjoyed [04:19] watching your stream, and I think a lot [04:20] of people are going to enjoy watching it [04:22] if they have time. We'll get into that [04:23] in a minute, but I want to start with a [04:24] spicy take that uh, I heard you say. You [04:27] said, quote, "Server-side rendering is [04:30] an edge case, [04:31] but not many applications actually need [04:34] it." Let's talk about what is [04:35] server-side rendering and why is it an [04:38] edge case in your opinion as opposed to [04:39] like a a core selling feature of a [04:42] platform? [04:43] So, I mean, server-side rendering is [04:45] what like the main bread and butter for [04:46] something like Next.js is. And even like [04:48] old monoliths like Ruby on Rails, etc., [04:51] they're rendering templates on the [04:52] server dynamically based upon the data [04:54] and all that stuff and shipping it to [04:56] the user. [04:57] I think that's actually an edge case [04:59] because in general, you're going to have [05:00] things like a marketing site or a doc [05:02] site that can just be static assets. I [05:04] actually I cry internally whenever I see [05:07] someone building a doc site with [05:08] Next.js. It makes no sense to me. [05:10] Um, and then beyond that, right? You're [05:12] going to have applications that are [05:14] login gated. Those are going to be [05:15] client-side rendered, right? Like, you [05:16] don't need server-side rendering for the [05:19] like the majority of applications in [05:22] which you're logging in. Server-side [05:24] rendering has a very specific niche in [05:26] which you have way too many pages that [05:28] statically rendering them is unfeasible [05:30] and the data changes too often. [05:32] And, you know, you still need like SEO [05:34] and things to like be able to crawl that [05:35] data. So, we're talking like the edge [05:37] case is e-commerce and classified ads [05:40] and like, you know, car listings and [05:41] things like that. But, that is not the [05:42] majority of the stuff that we're [05:44] building day in and day out. [05:46] Okay, so like if somebody is not [05:48] building one of those specific things [05:49] where SEO is like a principal concern or [05:51] where uh it's just like a massive amount [05:54] of data, you would say [05:55] don't jump straight to server-side [05:57] rendering. And I guess what is the [05:59] reason? Is it going to be faster for the [06:01] end user or it's not going to [06:03] necessarily be faster the end user, but [06:04] it adds complexity, it adds cost of [06:06] hosting? Yeah, I mean, so I've at least [06:09] seen this like just in the past couple [06:11] days where I'm navigating a site and [06:12] then for some reason I click a link to [06:15] go to their docs and I just see like the [06:17] the Next.js error page. And why should [06:19] you ever see that when you're reading a [06:20] docs page? It doesn't make any sense to [06:22] me. [06:23] Right? Like it should just be some [06:24] statically rendered HTML, CSS, and a [06:27] little bit of JavaScript sprinkled in. [06:29] So essentially you're saying it's just [06:30] like overcomplicating things. Exactly. [06:32] >> They're overthinking it. They're they're [06:33] using the proverbial bazooka to kill the [06:36] mosquito when they do something like [06:37] >> it does make sense for some startups [06:39] where yes, they don't want to think [06:41] about their stack. Everything's Next.js [06:42] so they don't have to make that decision [06:44] for each like individual part of the [06:45] project. I I get it maybe, but it's [06:47] still like it that seems just lazy to [06:49] me. Yeah. Well, I can I can certainly [06:52] understand like a lot of people are [06:53] probably just, you know, having LLMs [06:56] generate a lot of their original project [06:58] boilerplate. [07:00] Um and that's something I want to talk [07:01] with you about LLM code generation. And [07:04] of course when I use it like it'll be [07:06] like, "Okay, we're going to use this, [07:07] this, and this." It makes a lot of those [07:08] architectural decisions for me unless I [07:10] specify. And a lot of times it is [07:11] defaulting to like just using Next.js or [07:14] some proverbial bazooka um to build the [07:17] proverbial very simple like docs site. [07:20] Right. Right. Uh documentation for like [07:22] a a new programming tool for example. Uh [07:25] can you talk about like you you spend a [07:27] lot of time programming. I think you [07:28] spend like 30 hours a week just [07:30] programming on Twitch. So that's more [07:33] than most people I know. In fact, a lot [07:35] of people I was just hearing Jared Santo [07:37] of The Changelog, whom I've interviewed [07:38] many times on this podcast, say that [07:40] it's he doesn't even try to program more [07:41] than 4 hours a day because his brain [07:44] just is mush by the end of 4 hours. But [07:46] you're spending 6 hours [07:47] 5 days a week [07:49] 30 hours a week [07:50] streaming. So you [07:51] >> just on stream. I have work stuff that I [07:53] got to do, too. Yeah, yeah. So you work [07:56] a full-time job in addition to that. But [07:58] you've been quick to point out that you [07:59] don't consider streaming work cuz it [08:00] doesn't feel like work. It's fun. [08:02] Exactly. [08:02] >> But like let's talk about LLM code [08:04] generation and your perception of it, [08:07] how it's being adopted by developers, [08:09] and where you find it useful, where you [08:11] find it unnecessary. [08:14] Um yeah. So [08:16] I'm I'm not at the forefront of like [08:19] this vibe coding gas town, like all [08:21] these agents and orchestration and all [08:24] that stuff. I'm really just not doing [08:25] that much. But it doesn't mean I'm [08:26] totally anti-vibe coding as well. [08:29] Um I've totally used open code, Claude [08:32] code, bunch of those things just for [08:33] work cuz I have to as as a devrel, [08:35] right? Like for our dev tooling. But [08:37] even then like [08:39] I really like the idea of vibe coding [08:40] for something that is classified as a [08:42] program rather than like a product. And [08:44] there's a Dylan Beattie like blog post [08:46] the guy that made Rockstar Lang and all [08:48] that. He's amazing. He has a blog post [08:50] about the difference between programs [08:52] and products. And vibe coding is great [08:55] at making a program, but that doesn't [08:57] mean that oh, does it work on Windows? [08:59] Does it work on whatever? Like your [09:01] program is meant for you to just do [09:02] something quicker and easier. And vibe [09:04] coding is perfect for that stuff. [09:06] Um but [09:07] Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say [09:09] like a one way I've heard that described [09:10] is like software with an audience of [09:12] one. It's usually just something you're [09:14] doing or something that is just helping [09:16] a few of your teammates behind the [09:18] scenes like back office type coding. [09:19] Those kinds of workflows that are being [09:21] quickly automated where if it's not [09:23] perfect, it's not the end of the world [09:25] because no paying client sees like a 404 [09:27] page, right? Exactly. Yeah, I think [09:31] there's the idea I don't know if you're [09:32] familiar with XKCD or if the audience [09:34] isn't, but XKCD makes these awesome [09:36] comics. They've existed for 10, 20 [09:39] years, something like that. They have [09:40] this one where it's like, is it worth [09:42] automating a task? And it's this like [09:44] graph. And it says, well, if you're [09:45] doing it five times a day over the [09:47] course of three years, how much time [09:49] would you save? And that helps you think [09:50] about like how much time you would you [09:52] could reasonably spend on this task [09:55] before like the automation is worth more [09:56] than the value you get from it, right? [09:58] And I think LLMs have changed that graph [10:02] a little bit in that you could vibe code [10:04] out some of these things real quick and [10:05] easy and save yourself a lot more time [10:08] and the investment is no longer like as [10:10] big as it was before. But any code we [10:14] write is something we have to maintain [10:15] eventually. And I think that does really [10:17] like There's another XKCD that shows [10:19] like, oh, I'm going to build this thing. [10:21] And it shows this graph of like what you [10:22] expect the graph is going to do about [10:24] the amount of time invested. And then [10:26] the maintenance part goes way up. Right? [10:28] So, I don't know. It's interesting. [10:31] Yeah, I mean, in theory any code base [10:32] probably can you're probably going to [10:34] sink like 10 times depending on how long [10:36] the code is used. There there's heavy [10:38] maintenance cost and I'd encourage [10:39] people to check out the Maintainability [10:41] podcast by my friend Robbie Russell, [10:43] whom I've also interviewed several times [10:44] on the uh freeCodeCamp podcast. And he [10:46] just talks about maintainability. Yeah. [10:48] >> Right? And uh [10:49] and I [10:50] that's so much important and I think a [10:52] lot of people that are not experienced [10:53] devs, they're coming to the field think [10:55] like that the writing the initial code [10:56] base is the hard part or adding features [10:58] is the hard part, but I think the real [11:00] hard part from what like the really [11:01] experienced devs I talked to is making [11:03] sure that things continue to work over a [11:06] long period of time as new uh people are [11:08] entering the code base and having to [11:10] like understand it uh as like new um [11:13] edge cases emerge. Uh for example, for a [11:15] long time responsive web design wasn't a [11:17] thing and you were just cool with like, [11:19] okay, this is going to be viewed on a [11:20] monitor on a desktop and I can do like, [11:24] you know, 680 by 420 or whatever I can't [11:26] remember the exact resolution, but 600 [11:28] by 400, right? Like like there were set [11:30] resolutions you just assume that most [11:31] people would be viewing it, and now all [11:33] of a sudden, you've got mobile, uh [11:35] you've got all that sorts of [11:36] accessibility considerations that are [11:37] making these websites available to tons [11:40] of people who historically would not [11:41] necessarily have been able to use your [11:43] website or or your app uh because now [11:46] they can you've like made it accessible [11:48] to for screen readers and stuff like [11:49] that, right? It's [11:50] It's a net positive, but it is more work [11:53] than just the initial like uh MVP [11:56] minimum viable product that I think a [11:57] lot of people use like an LLM code gen [12:00] tool to to vibe code, some tool that [12:01] they're going to use for themselves. Uh [12:03] wouldn't it be great if I had like some [12:05] uh way to just quickly take, you know, [12:08] photos from this service and put them on [12:10] this service, right? Sure. And things [12:11] like that, right? So, that's kind of [12:13] like the the program you're talking [12:14] about. Like a program takes the the but [12:17] a product is something that paying [12:19] customers or uh you know, at least [12:21] you're serving ads or something like [12:22] that that that your end users are going [12:24] to experience. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's [12:27] not even just the like it coming back to [12:30] the maintainability part. It's not even [12:31] just that it's about program versus [12:34] product anymore. It's about your ability [12:36] to understand the code base. And there's [12:37] that anthropic article that just [12:39] released within the past week uh where [12:41] they're talking about like they did this [12:43] study, and it's kind of counter to what [12:45] like their entire marketing rhetoric has [12:47] been in that devs that are relying too [12:50] heavy on the LLMs are actually far worse [12:53] at like the later stage of debugging. [12:56] Right? And by doing that, sure, you're [12:57] getting a lot of value up front, but [12:59] you're just like really shifting where [13:01] you're going to spend your time. You're [13:02] not actually saving that time. [13:06] That's at least my opinion of it. And [13:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um to me, I like [13:10] understanding my code base. When someone [13:12] points out a bug, uh you know, cuz I'm [13:15] building like my own startup stuff on [13:16] stream, etc., and I you know, people can [13:19] use it, they can log into it, they [13:20] report bugs. I like them being able to [13:23] tell me, "Oh, they hit that bug." And [13:25] just instantly knowing like, "Oh, all [13:26] right." And then knowing where to go and [13:28] at least like look at look at it and fix [13:30] it. I like this mental map. [13:32] >> Yeah, like what you're doing is building [13:34] in public, you're learning in public, [13:36] you're using your your positioning [13:37] yourself as a vulnerable person who uh [13:40] you know, can be criticized. Your code [13:42] is being scrutinized in real time as you [13:44] write it, and then people are using it [13:46] and they're reporting bugs. [13:47] Uh I guess one question I have for you [13:49] is where did you get the audacity to do [13:52] that? Like who are you to put your code [13:55] on the internet and to to make all these [13:56] mistakes in front of other people? Like [13:58] have you no shame, sir? Like I think a [14:00] lot of people would be terrified of that [14:02] prospect of doing what you're doing. [14:05] So, I mean, [14:06] I am okay falling in front of people [14:09] because I used to be a snowboard bum. [14:11] Like I used to snowboard 150 days a [14:14] year, and I've ridden in competitions, [14:16] and I've totally fallen flat on my face [14:18] in front of people. So, like, yeah, [14:20] messing up some code in front of people [14:22] is really simple compared to that. [14:25] Yeah, and this is a great point for us [14:26] to go ahead and delve into your [14:28] very interesting developer journey. [14:31] Uh of course, uh you were a snowboarder [14:33] who sponsored, and uh that doesn't mean [14:35] lots of money, but that does mean lots [14:37] of like free gear and stuff, right? Um [14:39] and you you spent like I think we did [14:41] the math and you spent more than 2,000 [14:44] days [14:45] on the face of a mountain snowboarding. [14:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, something like that. So, I [14:49] don't know, from 2002 to 2012, I was [14:51] riding it like around 150 days a year. [14:54] One year I guarantee I got over 200, and [14:57] I had been snowboarding for like four or [14:58] five years before that. So, yeah, 2,000 [15:00] days is probably about right. [15:02] Um and yeah, it's just my favorite thing [15:04] to do. It's so fun. Oh, it's the best. [15:07] It's so cool that you have something [15:08] that is your favorite thing to do cuz I [15:09] think a lot of people are spending a lot [15:11] of time on like social media or they're [15:12] spending a lot of time just watching, [15:14] you know, reruns of The Office and stuff [15:16] like that. And like [15:17] they don't have that one thing that [15:19] really energizes them. Like I imagine [15:22] when you get time you're going to want [15:24] to go hit the slopes. Is that accurate? [15:26] Like like do you is that one of the [15:27] things you really look forward to as [15:29] you're doing all this work, you're [15:30] getting all this stuff done and you have [15:31] that goal like okay, I'm going to go [15:33] back out on the mountain, you know, this [15:35] weekend or the spring break or [15:36] something. That would be the dream. Like [15:38] these days I tend to just ride the [15:40] powder days cuz I'm I'm 41 now like I'm [15:43] I'm much more fragile than I was in my [15:45] 20s. [15:46] So I definitely don't ride the park like [15:48] I used to. [15:49] I kind of like pick and choose like the [15:51] good days to get up there and I try and [15:53] avoid weekends and other people like the [15:55] plague because snowboarding is better [15:57] when there's no one around. Yeah, yeah, [15:59] and I've snowboarded I don't know maybe [16:01] like [16:02] 10 different occasions I've gone to like [16:03] some different like resorts and stuff [16:05] like in San Francisco. You get on this [16:08] bus and go to like [16:09] Mammoth or I can't remember where I [16:11] went, but you just get on a bus at like [16:14] 3:00 a.m. They drive you to the mountain [16:16] and then you get your lift ticket and a [16:17] lot of times it's just included in the [16:19] package. You get to do the slopes for [16:20] one day then you get on the bus and you [16:21] like sleep on the way back or like we [16:23] watched Spaceballs on the way back. I [16:25] love that movie. [16:26] >> Classic. [16:27] And [16:28] yeah, it was just like the chillest [16:30] time. [16:32] But but like that was like the perfect [16:33] encapsulation for me. But maybe like you [16:35] can put me in the context of somebody [16:37] who's snowboarding that much. And I [16:39] promise we're going to get back to [16:39] software development but it's not every [16:41] day you have somebody who you know, was [16:43] a sponsored snowboarder on your podcast [16:45] and you can like glean information about [16:47] them. So maybe you can kind of talk [16:50] about like how you got into it and and [16:52] maybe mix in some childhood and [16:53] everything like that there. [16:54] >> Sure. Yeah, so I started snowboarding [16:57] around the age of I don't know like 13 [16:58] or something like that. Did it through [17:00] high school and I was not always like [17:02] the best student in high school. [17:05] So I really just didn't have any like [17:06] university prospects or anything. [17:09] You know, like I was good at the tests [17:11] and stuff. I just hated homework. So I [17:12] had terrible grades. [17:14] So at the age of 18 it was okay, well [17:17] friends are going off to college, [17:18] friends are doing all these things. I [17:20] just want to snowboard and I found out [17:21] that you can snowboard at Mount Hood [17:23] during the summer. They have just slush [17:25] and parks and it's like amazing. So, I [17:27] went down there for my first summer, [17:29] worked as a [17:31] pantry chef at at the start at least [17:34] because they needed someone cuz someone [17:35] was going on vacation. So, I got to make [17:36] the salads and the amuse and it was like [17:38] a a fine dining restaurant in the [17:40] Cascade dining room and it was just a [17:42] blast just getting into it and [17:45] just going out on an adventure at 18 and [17:47] then I just kept doing that, you know, [17:49] Stevens Pass during the winter and Mount [17:50] Hood during the summer for 10 years [17:52] after. [17:54] 10 years of [17:55] basically like snowboarding the same few [17:58] slopes. I mean like maybe a few dozen [18:01] different particular slopes that you [18:02] went down? [18:03] I mean yes, it's the two same resorts. [18:07] Like [18:08] Mount Hood during the summer, there's [18:09] only the Palmer snowfield basically. So, [18:11] that that could be boring but terrain [18:13] park, you can make that as fun as you [18:15] want. You can make it as different as [18:16] you want. You can learn a new trick [18:17] every day if you want. Uh but Stevens [18:19] Pass [18:20] it's a fairly large resort. I do have [18:23] like some of my favorite runs and [18:24] everything but [18:26] the thing about snow is that it changes [18:28] the terrain as like it fills in, as [18:30] stuff gets like stacked on, as trees [18:32] fall down. Like you're never riding the [18:34] same exact run ever, right? Because just [18:37] everything's changing. So, it kind of [18:39] gives you that like improvisation a [18:40] little bit. [18:42] Yeah, and it sounds very contemplative? [18:44] Contemplatative? [18:46] I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that [18:47] correctly. Like meditative. Uh you're up [18:50] on the slopes and and you can think [18:51] about the passage of time. Like [18:53] would you ever be on the slope and be [18:54] like like I remember five years ago [18:56] when, you know, there was like the [18:58] thickest of powder or something. Like [19:00] think back to some particular occasion. [19:02] I definitely have very specific days [19:04] that stand out that are just these [19:06] milestones of like, oh, I haven't had [19:08] powder like that where it's like, you [19:10] You we got some of the heavy like [19:11] Washington snow, uh you know, over a [19:13] couple days and then it got really cold [19:15] and we got this like really dry stuff on [19:17] top and that became like this Superman [19:19] snow. You could send anything but you'd [19:20] never get hurt. And [19:21] >> Wow. I do have some days like [19:23] >> like attempting some sort of like [19:25] potentially dangerous trick? Uh [19:27] like when we're talking like cliffs and [19:29] like uh like the free riding aspect of [19:31] it. [19:31] >> Okay, so so you're talking about going [19:32] down like a steep decline where like if [19:34] you start tumbling, you're not [19:36] necessarily going to get injured because [19:37] you're it's like tumbling on, you know, [19:40] not quite this affording but [19:42] >> So I mean that's how powder is in [19:43] general at least when you're like [19:44] tumbling but I mean more like the [19:46] Superman snow is like you can send [19:48] anything and you're not going to dip [19:49] down so far that you're going to like [19:51] catch and like nose in and flip. Like [19:53] it's like that dry bit on top you can [19:55] like fluff into without worrying about [19:58] like submarining under. Ah, submarine. [20:00] Okay, so I don't know a lot of the [20:01] terminology. [20:02] >> I don't know. I'm like For sure. That's [20:03] a cool term. That's a good visual. Okay, [20:05] so [20:06] I want to talk about the economics of [20:07] doing this because [20:09] you're working kind of like like I don't [20:11] imagine that being a pantry chef even at [20:13] a fine dining establishment at you know, [20:15] a ski resort pays anywhere near what [20:17] like being a developer or developer [20:19] advocate pays. [20:20] >> I think I made 825 that year per hour. [20:22] >> 825 per hour. Okay. So yeah, that's like [20:25] in the US minimum wage is I think 725. [20:29] It may have gone up. I was making 515 an [20:32] hour when I was working as you know, [20:35] a high school dropout and then [20:37] ultimately as a college student. I [20:39] worked at like Taco Bell and grocery [20:40] stores and stuff like that. So So you're [20:42] making about what I made [20:44] and probably just a couple years behind [20:47] what I am because you're I think you're [20:48] like four years younger than me. And [20:50] basically [20:52] you're just like doing this work to [20:54] support your lifestyle of going out on [20:57] the slopes. Like what proportion of your [20:59] money was going where? I just like to [21:00] dive in to understand like the economics [21:02] of it because you've got to buy lift [21:03] tickets. You probably have to have a [21:04] place to stay. So I mean if you're [21:06] working at a ski resort, you get a free [21:08] pass. So, that's that's awesome. And [21:11] Mount Hood during the summer and winter, [21:12] so they have uh in Government Camp, like [21:15] the closest town, they have employee [21:16] housing. And most ski resorts have some [21:18] kind of employee housing because the [21:21] people working there are not making a [21:22] lot of money. Okay. Wow, that's great. [21:24] So, it's kind of like you're able to [21:26] bank some of that. You weren't [21:27] necessarily spending all the money you [21:28] were bringing in? Uh [21:29] no, you you spend most of it, for sure. [21:32] Like, you go on trips, uh you know, [21:33] there's still rent. And you're basically [21:36] trying to work as little as possible. [21:38] So [21:39] >> spend as much time as you can on the [21:40] slopes. [21:40] >> Exactly. Yeah. And so, you spent like 10 [21:44] years. Like, so just to put that in [21:46] perspective, it's kind of like you're on [21:48] the sidelines of your career for 10 [21:49] years. Because this is not really a [21:52] career like again, I hope that doesn't [21:53] come across pejorative, but like even [21:55] like the most elite snowboarder like it [21:57] maybe if you're like an Olympic level [21:59] snowboarder, maybe you have the [22:01] equivalent of like what a teacher would [22:04] make in the US or something like that, [22:05] right? [22:07] Yeah, I mean, so that is something, [22:09] right? Like, pro snowboarders have a [22:10] very limited lifetime, right? They're [22:13] like they're they're like any pro [22:15] athlete, right? So, they're going to hit [22:17] like the age of 30 and the vast majority [22:21] of snowboarders aren't going to be able [22:22] to do it at the same level anymore. So, [22:25] that like almost every snowboarder has [22:27] to think about like where they're going [22:28] to go after this. Very few people can be [22:30] the announcer at X Games. There's only [22:32] like three of them, right? [22:33] >> Yeah. [22:34] Yeah. And and I'm just sure there are [22:35] like roles in like coaching and stuff [22:37] like that, but the the total amount of [22:38] money in the ecosystem I look at it as [22:40] kind of like music, which you're also a [22:42] musician, uh in that like uh the value [22:46] is like where is the actual economic [22:48] value of being a pro snowboarder like [22:51] captured? It's in the form of people [22:53] watching like the X Games or something [22:54] like that, or watching the Olympics, and [22:56] then going out and buying gear. And then [22:58] so, then you've got like the the gear [23:00] companies that are selling the boards or [23:01] the clothes or something like that and [23:03] they are basically getting the money and [23:04] then they're using some of that money [23:06] and putting it back into the ecosystem [23:07] through sponsorships like you were [23:09] getting and and but the total amount of [23:12] money going into the industry is small [23:14] just like the total amount of money [23:15] going into the music industry is small [23:17] to where it kind of like relegates it to [23:19] a hobby for most people. Mhm. And most [23:22] people of course going to ski or going [23:24] on a ski trip or going on a snowboarding [23:25] trip is like a loss-making proposition [23:27] but they're doing it because it's fun, [23:28] of course. [23:29] >> Yeah. Most people get into skiing and [23:31] snowboarding not to get sponsored, [23:32] right? They just want to snowboard and [23:33] ski. [23:35] So, let's talk about like you start [23:36] getting injured uh and it starts getting [23:40] harder for you to, you know, do it at a [23:42] peak level. You still enjoy doing it but [23:45] you have to have more of like forgiving [23:46] circumstances. You can't just go out on [23:48] like ice and like snowboard around and [23:51] like, you know, if you're if you're [23:52] snowboarding 150 days a year, I imagine [23:54] you're not it's not always ideal [23:56] conditions and sometimes you're wiping [23:57] out pretty hard. Yeah, so I mean during [24:00] the majority of those years, uh I was [24:02] working in the terrain park which meant [24:03] I had to snowboard on some of the worst [24:05] days. Uh just you like had to go through [24:07] the park, make sure people aren't hurt [24:09] and then well, if I'm passing the [24:10] features, I got to test them, got to [24:11] rake them and so yeah, I'd be riding on [24:14] some very very not fun days sometimes [24:16] but still having fun while doing it. [24:18] Yeah, so what point did you realize, [24:19] okay, like I do need to transition into [24:22] something else and then [24:24] what inspired you to choose software [24:25] development? So, um [24:28] yes, I have a shoulder that dislocates. [24:30] I've broken both my collarbones. I've [24:32] done AC separations on both shoulders, a [24:34] couple concussions, right? Like the [24:36] injuries add up, right? And you're [24:38] always kind of paying a tax on them even [24:41] after you've like healed. [24:42] So, as those like start started adding [24:46] up, I realized I needed to do something [24:48] beyond snowboarding and my parents were [24:51] in tech. They, you know, they worked on [24:53] like the 1-800 system at like Bellcore [24:56] and you know, just a bunch of telephony [24:57] and crazy stuff, right? So, I come from [25:00] like a kind of a programming family, [25:01] which is funny because I'm the only one [25:03] of my siblings that's like a a career [25:05] programmer. My little brother's getting [25:07] into it, which I'm really proud of, but [25:09] like yeah, I'm really like the only one [25:11] that kind of followed in my parents' [25:12] footsteps a bit. But because they did [25:15] it, it always seemed approachable, [25:17] right? My dad doesn't have a degree, I [25:19] think at all, maybe. He might have gone [25:21] back to finish it, but it wasn't in [25:23] programming, cuz this was during the [25:24] '70s or something like that. Same thing [25:27] with my mom, she has a degree in math. [25:29] Like she's not a programmer like like, [25:32] you know, by degree or anything like [25:34] that. [25:35] But that just made it even more [25:36] approachable to me. So, eventually I [25:39] went and got like you know, I started [25:40] doing some like freelancing for some [25:43] like snowboard friends. I built like [25:45] Steven's Pass snowboard shop's like [25:47] website, and even did some e-commerce [25:49] for a little bit using Magento back in [25:51] the day. [25:52] And then yeah, that seemed so [25:53] approachable because I had [25:55] at as a millennial, we grew up with [25:58] GeoCities, that taught me HTML. [26:01] We grew up with MySpace, that taught me [26:03] CSS. So, like all of these things kind [26:05] of like primed us to be devs. So, like [26:07] millennials got really lucky in that [26:09] regard, I think. [26:11] Yeah, absolutely. So, you're getting [26:13] these skills, you're getting some like [26:15] small contracts from [26:18] you know, Steven's Point like snowboard [26:20] shop and stuff like that. [26:22] You did go to community college. [26:24] Yeah, this was like age 28 or so is when [26:26] you started to learn to program, and at [26:28] one point you did go and get like kind [26:30] of the equivalent of an associate's [26:31] degree. Yeah, yeah. So, I I I spent like [26:35] like three or four years getting my [26:36] two-year degree, just because I did it [26:38] during spring and fall, you know, and [26:39] like between snowboarding seasons. Yeah, [26:41] yeah, and and that's perfectly [26:42] respectable, by the way. Like they call [26:44] it a two-year degree, but very few [26:45] people actually just focus on going to [26:47] school. [26:48] Like especially in the community college [26:49] system, unless you're bound for college [26:51] and you're just saving money going [26:51] through community college, which is what [26:53] I recommend doing. Don't go straight [26:54] into a four-year university. Go to a [26:56] community college. You'll probably get [26:57] even better, you know, instruction cuz [26:59] the teachers are not focused on [27:01] research, they're focused on you and and [27:02] teaching you. And it's way more [27:04] affordable and it's your most of your [27:06] classmates are going to also be working. [27:08] It'll be more relatable. They won't just [27:09] be a bunch of rich kids stuff. So it'll [27:11] be more interesting. And so like again, [27:13] I will always stand for [27:15] community college. I think it's one of [27:16] the best things about the US higher [27:18] education system. [27:19] And uh [27:20] you know, rent there. But so so you're [27:23] in community college and you're you're [27:25] snowboarding continuing to snowboard [27:27] despite your injuries and you're [27:29] continuing to build your programming [27:30] skills and take on clients and stuff. [27:32] Walk us through that process. [27:35] So yeah, um [27:38] basically I realized I needed to move [27:42] into tech and I had I was living in [27:44] Woodinville here in Washington and [27:46] Cascadia is a community college that's [27:48] like I guess closely affiliated with [27:50] U-Dub or University of Washington in [27:52] some way. And it was just so close like [27:55] yeah, I'll go there, get my two-year [27:57] degree and then possibly transfer [27:59] because because they're associated with [28:01] University of Washington, it was like a [28:02] no questions asked like transfer that [28:04] you could do. But I at the end of it I [28:06] decided I didn't even need to do that, [28:08] right? [28:09] Yeah, and what gave you the confidence [28:10] to skip that? [28:11] To cuz like a lot of people like [28:12] University of Washington is a great [28:13] school. It's probably one of the top, [28:15] you know, 20 or 30 universities in the [28:17] states. [28:18] Uh Yeah, I mean, I had known a few [28:20] people who did the university thing [28:24] especially for programming and some of [28:25] that and it just seemed like [28:28] a lot of what the curriculum was trying [28:30] to do was get like too deep into the [28:32] weeds and I just wanted to do web dev. [28:35] And web dev isn't really a thing that [28:37] universities teach that much. Maybe they [28:39] do nowadays, but back then they were not [28:41] teaching it that much. And I didn't care [28:43] about bit shifting. I didn't care about [28:45] bit masking and like all the you know, [28:47] CPU registers. I don't care. I I think [28:50] that might be another one of my spicy [28:51] takes that you were asking about. Like I [28:53] really don't think web devs need to care [28:55] about CPU registers. You should maybe [28:57] understand caching and some of these [28:59] things, but in the majority of what [29:00] you're doing, you don't have to care [29:02] about how you know, the just-in-time [29:04] compiler works in JavaScript. You can [29:06] just accept the fact that it's going to [29:08] do its job. Yeah. And I mean, the tools [29:10] and the layers of abstraction, like I [29:12] always advocate for going as deep as you [29:13] can, but there are practical trade-offs, [29:16] right? Like it costs a lot of time and [29:18] energy to try to understand how memory [29:20] management works in C and garbage [29:23] collection and like to go write your own [29:25] compiler to go write your own operating [29:27] system. Yeah. And I'm not saying people [29:29] shouldn't do that. If you're like [29:30] passionate and you really want to like [29:32] get that low level and do it, [29:34] absolutely. But I just know for me, I'm [29:36] I'm kind of like an ideas guy that knew [29:38] I couldn't ever afford to pay people to [29:40] build the software they want, so I just [29:42] started learning how to do it for [29:43] myself. [29:45] Awesome. And I want to talk about like [29:47] your developer career. So, you were [29:49] doing freelance work, which is great. [29:52] And I encourage everybody to start with [29:53] freelancing. I think that it's the best [29:55] way to prove your skills and get a [29:57] reputation and a professional network [30:00] and people that will vouch for you [30:02] while also making ends meet. And then [30:05] when you go apply for jobs, you've got [30:07] this entire portfolio of actual paid [30:09] work that you've done for clients, which [30:11] is way more compelling than just like, [30:13] "Oh, look at this, you know, uh [30:16] you know, Unreal Engine game that I [30:17] made." Which is cool and all if you got [30:18] people playing it, but like at the end [30:20] of the day, like [30:21] they are just trying to de-risk you as a [30:23] candidate and they look at like the work [30:25] you've done in the past and they're [30:26] like, "Well, this person can probably [30:28] get the job done because look at all [30:29] this work they've already done. They've [30:31] already gotten the job done for all [30:32] these other people, right?" [30:34] Yeah, I mean, um I I think I agree [30:36] somewhat. Freelancing is a great way to [30:39] start, but I think people do themselves [30:42] a disservice if they stick with it too [30:43] long without getting like going into [30:45] like a proper job. Because as a [30:48] freelancer, you're typically working [30:49] alone. You don't understand how to work [30:51] with a team. [30:52] You get to miss like you miss out on a [30:54] lot of like the how the project planning [30:56] should work or how it does work at other [30:58] companies. And as a freelancer, you have [31:00] to wear every hat. You have to be sales. [31:02] You have to be marketing. You have to be [31:04] the project manager. You have to do all [31:06] of these things and very few people are [31:08] going to be good enough at all of them [31:10] to actually be successful as a [31:11] freelancer long term. So, I tend to [31:13] recommend yes, maybe get started with [31:14] freelancing. You should absolutely be [31:16] trying to break into a full-time [31:19] employment gig somewhere just to get [31:21] like that working with other people and [31:23] all that. And then as you've done that [31:24] and learned it, maybe then go back into [31:26] freelancing. Sure. [31:27] >> Yeah, awesome. And I appreciate you [31:29] pushing back on the notion like [31:31] I do know a lot of people. I'm biased [31:33] heavily in this regard because a lot of [31:35] my recent podcast guests have been [31:37] professional freelancers who essentially [31:38] expanded and now run agencies, but they [31:41] could be those outliers [31:42] you're talking about where very few [31:44] people are good at like the the sales [31:46] side and also like communicating work [31:48] and expecting things out, budgeting, [31:50] like making sure that that they the [31:52] payroll gets sent out, all that stuff. [31:54] I consider myself to be one of those [31:55] people because like I like I'll boast [31:59] about that like I'm running free code [32:00] camp, right? We've got like a 30-person [32:02] team and we've got things going, but [32:06] I I agree it's not for everybody. A lot [32:08] of people just want to focus more and [32:10] get good at like a key skill instead of [32:13] just trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. [32:15] Exactly. Yep. Yeah, so talk about your [32:18] job search. Like you've got this [32:21] you know, you don't have a degree, but [32:22] you do have a lot of [32:23] client work that you've done and you do [32:25] have a passion for developing software. [32:28] It seems that that was never a an issue [32:30] for you. You enjoyed building. Am I [32:31] correct? [32:31] >> Yeah, exactly. [32:33] Yeah, like the the way I kind of got my [32:36] first job was interesting. Like, [32:40] you know, I was doing freelancing stuff, [32:41] doing Magento sites, and blah blah blah, [32:43] and sure, it's fine. Uh [32:46] I then started interviewing, and I had [32:48] some of the absolute worst interviews [32:50] ever. Uh man, there was one at like an [32:53] agency in like West Seattle, where it's [32:56] like a two-person like shop, and they [32:59] had me doing [33:01] debugging of PHP code using pen and [33:04] paper. [33:06] It was a nightmare, right? Like, just [33:08] why are you making me be like the the [33:11] static analysis tool when we have [33:14] software that does that? Like, why are [33:16] you expecting this to be something that [33:18] someone has to do? Like, it was just [33:19] That was an awful one. So, I'm glad I [33:20] didn't get that job. Um there was a [33:23] couple others where [33:25] uh like [33:26] it again, like a smaller like shop, and [33:30] the interviewer was very combative. [33:33] Like, I don't know. So, I dodged a lot [33:35] of bullets, and I got really lucky that [33:37] uh Fresh Consulting, an agency, gave me [33:39] a chance because they needed someone to [33:41] hammer out a WordPress site like real [33:42] quick. And then, they also wanted to go [33:44] into JavaScript applications, which is [33:46] where I wanted to take my career anyway. [33:50] Yeah, and how did you know that that was [33:52] where you wanted to take it? Like, the [33:53] entire time you've been talking, you've [33:55] been like, "Web dev, web dev, web dev." [33:56] And a lot of people are like, "Web dev? [33:58] Like, I don't even use websites anymore. [33:59] Almost everything I do is interacting [34:01] with the web maybe through mobile apps." [34:03] And I think most like, certainly US [34:07] consumers probably spend like 10 times [34:09] the amount of time they spend on a given [34:11] website in some sort of mobile app. I [34:14] don't know if that's an accurate um you [34:17] know, approximation of but but like, I [34:18] can tell you like, certainly less [34:20] sophisticated and I I I am saying that [34:23] kind of pejoratively. People that care [34:25] less about like, the open web, care less [34:27] about um [34:29] using websites, and are happy to just be [34:30] on some platform and be fed stuff. Which [34:33] unfortunately does describe a lot of [34:34] people who are frankly tired and [34:35] probably overworked and having all kinds [34:38] of like economic, you know, hardships [34:40] and and like I can understand they just [34:43] wanting to like [34:44] doom scroll for a while at the end of a [34:45] busy day. But but like why web dev? What [34:48] what is it that draws you to web dev [34:50] when uh many people would say, "Oh, [34:52] they're like countervailing winds." Like [34:54] essentially like [34:56] web dev's best days are behind it and [34:58] everything's mobile now or every you [35:00] know, like there there's so many other [35:02] areas you could be focused on. Why are [35:04] you interested in web dev? [35:06] I mean [35:07] personally to me uh like I got started [35:09] back before like mobile apps were even [35:11] really that good. Sure like uh you know, [35:13] I got a two-year uh not a two-year, [35:15] sorry. I got a certificate from U Dub [35:16] for like iOS development because it was [35:19] the boom back then. [35:21] And it's it's interesting, but I [35:24] I think the magic of web dev is that you [35:26] can ship so much faster. There's no app [35:29] store to like wait on. So like your [35:31] ability to just like continuously [35:33] improve this product over time is [35:35] massive. And there's just like there's [35:37] so much you can do with the web. And I [35:40] think a big part of it is like why did I [35:41] want to do the web stuff? Well, because [35:43] I did GeoCities and MySpace and all [35:45] that. Like I already had this kind of [35:47] like a bit of like skill built up. But [35:50] in my opinion, I think [35:52] the JavaScript application like web dev [35:55] space is really powerful and even with [35:58] stuff like React Native, you can take a [35:59] lot of that same knowledge and apply it [36:01] to make building mobile apps, too. So I [36:03] don't necessarily see like too big of [36:05] like a a cut-and-dry differentiation [36:07] between web app and mobile app. To me, [36:10] it's still just an app. Right? And it [36:13] it's way different from like a desktop [36:15] application at least. Like the process [36:18] and some of that stuff. [36:20] Yeah, and that's helpful to you know, [36:21] since you have kind of like walked both [36:24] both worlds. Um and this is one thing [36:26] like again, that was kind of a devil's [36:28] advocate question cuz I'm a huge fan of [36:29] the open web and like freeCodeCamp [36:31] heavily emphasized teaching web dev. And [36:33] when people are like, "But I want to [36:34] make Android apps." I'm like, cool. Take [36:36] one of our extracurricular, you know, [36:37] Flutter app courses or something like [36:39] that, right? Like I'm a huge Flutter fan [36:41] and we use Flutter for both our iOS and [36:44] Android app and they're maintained in [36:45] the same code base and we treat them [36:47] kind of like a web app in that we can [36:50] iterate quickly and ship things and [36:51] we're not just constantly waiting on the [36:53] the app store because a lot of it is [36:55] pulled from the web through APIs. So, [36:58] we're kind of shipping like a shell and [36:59] then populating that shell through the [37:01] web. [37:02] So, so this is one thing that I I tell a [37:04] lot of people and I'd actually like to [37:06] hear your assessment of this as somebody [37:07] who has probably built a lot of mobile [37:09] apps as well and has has studied that [37:12] has that cert from University of [37:13] Washington in mobile app development. [37:17] Mobile app development is like web [37:18] development, but instead of developing [37:20] for the browser, you're developing for a [37:21] mobile app client. But most of the back [37:23] end is the same type of work. Yeah, [37:26] right. You're still going to have like [37:27] There are apps that don't need a server, [37:29] but a lot of the apps that we use every [37:31] day have some kind of server. So, that's [37:33] still basically web dev, right? Half of [37:35] it is still like what you would be doing [37:37] if you're building a web app as well. [37:38] Like you have this back end that you [37:40] have to build and maintain and ship the [37:41] data to whatever is going to consume it. [37:45] And this kind of maybe hearkens back to [37:46] why I think I'm not a fan of server-side [37:48] rendering, especially like the monoliths [37:50] like Ruby on Rails, because I just want [37:52] to build a single canonical REST API and [37:55] then consume that data into the other [37:58] things that are better at rendering for [37:59] what I'm trying to do. So, Astro for a [38:01] static site, [38:02] React for a client-side application, [38:05] right? I I just like the idea of taking [38:08] this [38:08] REST API that is fully portable and just [38:11] consuming it wherever I need to. [38:14] Awesome. What are some tips you'd have [38:15] for somebody who is interested in [38:18] developing REST APIs? [38:21] Uh, and and for those of you who are [38:23] listening who are less familiar with [38:24] what an API is, application programming [38:26] interface, I think is what the acronym [38:27] stands for. What I like to say is it's [38:29] like a website, but instead of sending [38:31] you HTML to your browser, it sends JSON. [38:35] Yeah. Yeah, I think the word API is [38:37] actually so much more broad than that, [38:39] right? Like everything we do has an API. [38:41] The languages that we work with have [38:43] APIs. Like, you know, so that's the [38:45] trickier part, but then REST [38:47] >> I'm talking about I guess specifically [38:48] REST or GraphQL type Yeah, I just wanted [38:50] to make sure that was like more obvious [38:52] at that point. [38:53] >> it's an overloaded term because [38:55] technically anytime [38:56] any sort of software talks with another [38:59] piece of software, it's through some [39:00] sort of application programming [39:01] interface. But we're specifically [39:03] talking about like [39:04] web APIs. [39:05] >> Yes. And here we're talking about like [39:07] REST APIs. The [39:09] main reason I have to put that in quotes [39:11] is there are people that will push back [39:13] on like HATEOAS and like all the things [39:15] that like REST should be and [39:16] self-discoverable and blah blah. I'm not [39:19] necessarily as rigid about that [39:21] definition. I just, you know, I know [39:22] there are people that are. [39:24] But the idea of just simply like having [39:26] this server that spits out data and then [39:29] you can decide the rendering of that [39:31] data, the presentation of that data [39:33] based upon the the medium that you're [39:35] consuming it on. So, that could be your [39:36] browser, that could be a mobile app, [39:38] that could even be your fridge, right? [39:40] All of these things could just be [39:41] getting data from some place. And how do [39:43] you get that data? That's what your REST [39:45] API is doing. [39:47] Awesome. Well, while while we're on the [39:49] kind of like space it takes, we're going [39:50] to get into some other cool stuff in a [39:51] moment, but you One quote that I love [39:54] from you is programming languages aren't [39:55] sports teams. Don't pigeonhole yourself. [39:58] Good ideas are portable. You don't just [40:00] have to be a Cubs fan, you can be, you [40:02] know, a fan of the Cubs and I don't I [40:05] don't know that much about baseball, but [40:07] like [40:08] the Red Sox. [40:09] Uh, you know, you you can be a a fan of [40:11] many programming languages and you don't [40:13] have to fall for like kind of tribalism, [40:16] if you will. [40:16] >> Yeah, I mean, it's a common thread on [40:18] like a lot of streams I see, where um [40:21] you know, [40:22] I I'm not going to name the streamers, [40:24] but there are streamers that are very [40:25] anti certain languages and very pro [40:27] others. And like it's a really fun vibe [40:30] on their channel when they can kind of [40:31] like group up and like, you know, get [40:33] that like herd mentality around those [40:35] things. Like it works for their channel, [40:37] but for my channel, I really dislike [40:39] that. I because learning a new [40:41] programming language makes you better [40:43] with the ones you already know. Learning [40:45] Rust made me a better JavaScript [40:46] developer. Learning Go made me a better [40:48] Rust developer, right? Like just [40:50] understanding and learning the different [40:51] patterns, right? Because like I like you [40:54] quoted me, good ideas are portable, [40:56] right? You with the evolution of like [40:58] effect TS in JavaScript and TypeScript, [41:02] that is basically taking a whole bunch [41:03] of like functional programming ideas [41:05] that are not as prevalent in JavaScript [41:08] these days, but it could be and it makes [41:10] more robust programs if you can like [41:12] handle these things the way like that [41:15] functional programming languages do or [41:16] just like some of these more robust [41:17] back-end languages have figured out. [41:20] Yeah. So, it sounds like you're you're [41:22] kind of trying to get the best of all [41:23] worlds in terms of like why not sample a [41:25] little of this, little of that. Uh so, [41:28] that's a really cool way to be. [41:30] I want to talk a bit about how you keep [41:32] your skills sharp. I mean, you're a [41:34] professional developer, you're coding [41:36] for 30 hours a week on stream, and then [41:38] you're also doing your full 40-hour [41:41] 40-hour work week at Git Kraken, which [41:43] is some sort of version control [41:44] management tool. I actually don't know a [41:46] lot about it. If you want to just give a [41:47] Yeah, so Git Kraken's a desktop Git GUI, [41:50] like that's the main thing. Uh we also [41:51] have Git Lens in VS Code. You might have [41:53] that. [41:54] >> Okay. Right? Um we also have a web app. [41:56] We have some other things. Most of it is [41:58] around just making Git easier to work [41:59] with. Okay. So, it's a [42:01] >> Kraken, I'm not writing nearly that much [42:03] code. I'm I'm a developer advocate, so [42:05] I'm making content, but it does mean I [42:07] have to like set up demos to like [42:09] actually use the product against, right? [42:11] I have to set up merge conflicts so I [42:12] can demo our merge conflict resolution [42:14] tool, things like that. Yeah. So, you're [42:16] kind of like setting traps so that you [42:18] can fall into them and then work your [42:19] way out of them. Yep. That's awesome. [42:22] So, [42:23] one thing I have is just like [42:26] you're keeping your skills sharp. You're [42:27] learning all these new tools cuz you [42:29] kind of like there your audience is [42:31] probably doesn't want to just watch you [42:32] build the same project over and over [42:33] again. You constantly have to find new [42:35] problems to solve. How do you keep your [42:38] skills sharp and like what is your [42:40] information diet? What is your like [42:42] learning routine? What is What is some [42:44] of that the ways that you keep yourself [42:45] in shape? So, um [42:48] the main thing I do on my stream is I [42:50] build side projects. So, I'm I'm not [42:53] necessarily doing like reaction content [42:55] like some other streamers do. I'm not [42:56] necessarily [42:58] like [42:59] like focusing on lead code or anything [43:01] like that. I'm building projects and by [43:03] building projects [43:05] and like seeing them through, you're [43:07] going to solve problems that you [43:08] wouldn't necessarily think about and [43:10] it's it's always something kind of new. [43:12] So, that just keeps me guessing and [43:14] learning. And then when it comes to like [43:15] other programming languages and things [43:17] like that, I just I don't know. I find [43:19] it fun. I like to tinker. Um [43:21] yeah, I just I like building stuff. [43:24] Yeah, and and that is 100% coming [43:26] through in your stream which I've [43:27] enjoyed watching. I'm I'm not like one [43:30] of those very vocal people that's [43:31] peppering you with questions. But like [43:33] you have like an incredible like bedside [43:35] manner so to speak like a physician [43:36] almost kind of like like just the way [43:38] you talk to people in in like [43:40] kind of give people in insight into your [43:42] thinking pattern and also just like the [43:44] the kindness with which you receive [43:47] people that have tuned in. Like you're [43:48] so [43:49] hospitable. It's It's really incredible. [43:52] I would say most of the time I'm [43:53] hospitable. I I'm I can be a jerk [43:55] sometimes. There are definitely some [43:56] people that would say so. So, Yeah, I [43:58] mean you don't want people to push you [43:59] around and take advantage of you, right? [44:00] You have to stand up for yourself. [44:01] >> Yeah, exactly. Like it's my stream. I [44:03] want to I want it to be the way it is [44:05] and I am sometimes a little wary of new [44:08] people and I need to be better about [44:10] that. But, [44:11] yeah, I mean, when you stream 30 hours a [44:13] week, you're going to maybe have moments [44:14] that you're less proud of. So, I'm [44:16] working on [44:17] >> capture 30 hours of any given person's [44:19] week for long enough, you're going to [44:20] catch them in weak moments where they [44:23] lost control or they lost composure or [44:25] they just did something silly and [44:27] embarrassed themselves. [44:30] So, why stream? [44:32] So, this is actually kind of a fun [44:34] story. Uh the way I got into streaming, [44:37] like I didn't even know that there was [44:39] programming on Twitch, right? Like, you [44:41] know, software dev on Twitch. [44:43] Uh I did an interview for Mixer. Uh this [44:47] is probably in 2017, maybe early 2018, [44:50] something like that. And Mixer, if [44:52] people are unaware, was the [44:53] Microsoft-owned version of Twitch. And, [44:56] you know, they they paid Ninja [44:58] >> of money to Ninja. Yeah, that's all I [45:00] know about it. And then they shut it [45:01] down and left everybody out in the open [45:03] like they'd been building their [45:05] platform. It was pretty pretty dick move [45:07] on their part to just shut it down so [45:08] summarily. Yeah, yeah, pretty tough. Um [45:11] but yeah, so I interviewed at Mixer and [45:13] uh like basically they were a company [45:15] that got acquired. So, the the CEO of [45:18] Beam, which is what it was called before [45:20] Mixer, uh he was one of the interviews [45:22] that I was like interviewing with. Uh [45:24] Microsoft does like a four-round [45:25] process. He was interview number two, I [45:27] think. [45:28] Um but I'm sitting there like chatting [45:30] with him and I remember one of the [45:32] things he said was, "Man, it'd be cool [45:34] if you streamed just because you would [45:36] understand like the customers better, [45:37] right? You'd understand our users [45:39] better." And I was like, "Well, all [45:41] right." Yeah, I didn't get the job at [45:42] the time. [45:43] Uh I felt like, "Well, maybe I could try [45:45] again in the future. I should probably [45:46] figure out this streaming thing a bit." [45:48] And that's when I went and looked at [45:49] Twitch and saw that there was actually [45:51] like software dev and that kind of blew [45:53] my mind. And I actually saw a streamer, [45:58] uh his name was like Adam13531 [46:00] back in the day. Now it's like Adam [46:01] Learns Live. And I just saw that he was [46:04] just working on a side project and that [46:05] was like at the time I had had all of [46:08] these projects like in a Trello board [46:10] that I wanted to work on that I just I [46:11] never seemed to have time for. [46:13] And I was like, well, maybe I'll start [46:15] streaming and then I can work on those. [46:17] Then within like the first month or two [46:19] I had knocked out like three or four of [46:21] the projects I had I'd always wanted to [46:23] do, which was perfect. [46:25] Yeah, that sounds awesome. So, [46:27] uh what are some of the like what's the [46:30] stream like? Like what is a general flow [46:32] for people who haven't tuned in [46:34] uh to a Chris Griffin stream? Like [46:36] in terms of like take us from beginning [46:39] to end like what a typical stream might [46:41] look like. [46:42] Mhm. [46:43] I mean it has changed over time like uh [46:46] currently I just I'll like start out we [46:49] have like 5 to 10 minutes sometimes [46:50] longer of just like [46:52] you know, starting soon screen and like [46:54] hanging out like chatting like, "Hey [46:56] guys, you know, how's your day going?" [46:57] People coming in saying hi and that's [46:59] where I'm like, you know, posting to my [47:01] Discord of like what my plan for the day [47:03] is. And I usually like I have an idea of [47:06] where we left off the night before. I [47:08] have an idea of like what features we [47:10] want to launch. I have a a linear board [47:11] with all this stuff in it. And I [47:13] basically just like craft my like today [47:16] command in chat and also like my Discord [47:18] announcements so people can like kind of [47:20] like figure out if they want to show up [47:22] that day or not. And then from there I [47:23] just I start working. [47:26] Uh you know, just knocking out the tasks [47:27] and doing that stuff. There was a time [47:29] where I was doing like what we called [47:31] like the Hacker News crawl where I would [47:33] like find like news articles and just [47:34] read them and we'd like, I don't know, I [47:36] had the idea of maybe doing some like [47:38] Primagen style like reaction stuff. I'm [47:40] bad at that, but it was still like a [47:43] good way to keep up to date with things. [47:46] The I think one of the nice parts about [47:48] streaming is that I don't necessarily [47:50] have to do that anymore. People will [47:51] just come in and ask about it, right? [47:53] And so I don't need to do the discovery [47:55] of of news on my own anymore. [47:58] >> So, essentially they're bringing you [47:59] like interesting articles to you to see [48:01] what your thoughts are on them. Yeah, [48:02] yeah, that happens all the time, for [48:04] sure. Like, "What's your thoughts on [48:05] blank?" And [48:08] yeah, if I hadn't heard about it, well, [48:09] I guess we're going to talk about it for [48:10] a half hour or so. [48:11] Awesome. [48:12] >> very like free form in that I will [48:14] happily rant about something for a half [48:16] hour to an hour and then get right back [48:18] to work. [48:19] Yeah. So, let's say somebody who's [48:20] listening to this first of all, I'd [48:22] encourage them to spend some time [48:23] watching your stream before they attempt [48:24] to do this themselves. But, let's say [48:25] they are thinking like, "Hey, I'd like [48:27] to stream. [48:29] I enjoy programming. I enjoy talking to [48:31] people. Like, I'm pretty outgoing [48:33] person." [48:34] Like, [48:35] what would you recommend they do? Where [48:37] where would you recommend they get [48:38] started if they wanted to start [48:40] streaming? [48:41] So, [48:43] like, [48:44] I'm always going to recommend that you [48:46] have a camera and a microphone and some [48:49] decent lighting. [48:51] It doesn't have to be a perfect camera, [48:53] right? You can get by with like a really [48:55] cheap webcam, right? Like the There's [48:57] like a a Logitech C920 or something like [49:00] that. I think there's a newer model [49:01] number. [49:02] >> one I'm using. I'm not a gearhead and I [49:04] just use It's good enough. I've got [49:05] natural light coming through my window. [49:07] It's good enough. I don't need a 4K [49:08] webcam or anything. [49:09] >> important than the camera in most cases. [49:10] And there's like a Harris Heller video [49:12] that talks about that specifically. He [49:13] shows like an expensive DSLR with bad [49:16] lighting and then the C920 with good [49:18] lighting and the C920 kind of looks [49:20] better. [49:21] But, yeah, the idea is just get any [49:23] camera. If you have like an old iPhone [49:25] or something, those make great cameras [49:26] for like stream stuff. So, you know, old [49:29] iPhone, old Android phone, any of those, [49:31] you could wire those up as a webcam and, [49:33] you know, like very cheap if you just [49:35] have it lying around already. [49:37] Make sure you have a microphone. I think [49:40] the way that people consume my stream, [49:42] sure, they might be watching. I think [49:43] the majority of my audience is like [49:45] co-working while I'm doing so. So, [49:47] they're just having me on in the [49:48] background as if it was like a podcast, [49:51] but it's it's different every day, [49:52] right? Like it's just completely new and [49:55] they can just put me on and zone out and [49:57] then, you know, with their compiling, [49:58] they can actually like focus and do [50:00] their thing or whatever. [50:01] Um [50:02] I just think it because that's how a lot [50:05] of people consume stream, your audio is [50:08] actually more important than the video [50:10] of your face. But having a face is still [50:12] important for the people that do watch [50:14] because it just makes it more [50:15] personable. [50:17] There are streamers that don't have a [50:18] camera in the software category, like uh [50:20] El Colun Q or whatever. [50:22] Um he has this like cool ASCII avatar. [50:25] It's awesome. Uh [50:27] he can he makes it work, but very like [50:30] that is an edge case. To try and like [50:32] think that you're going to be the [50:33] exception is usually kind of a bad [50:36] thought pattern. Yeah, and I remember a [50:38] while back like I was reading about the [50:39] top, you know, streamers on Twitch in [50:41] the gaming category, which is where [50:42] probably 99% of viewing happens. It's [50:45] not on programming. I think you said [50:47] that there are like 2,000 concurrents in [50:50] the programming category at any time? [50:51] Yeah, I mean that's maybe at like peak, [50:53] like 2,000 concurrent viewers in the [50:55] entire category. I think it's closer to [50:57] around like 800 to 1,000 at any given [50:59] moment. Yeah. And you're getting 40 to [51:02] 100 of those, by the way, which means [51:03] you're getting like somewhere between 4 [51:05] and 10% of the total [51:07] audience viewing. That's That's pretty [51:09] big. I mean, anybody who got like [51:12] 4 to 10% market share in whatever [51:14] category they're in, that's that's like [51:15] they're a market leader, essentially. [51:17] Theoretically, like I've been doing it [51:19] for 7 and 1/2 years, so, you know, I'd [51:21] like to have maybe grown more, but it's [51:24] still like just awesome. I just like [51:25] having a community that I can come back [51:27] to and [51:29] like it because it is this like 1,000 to [51:32] 2,000 concurrent viewers that all of [51:34] like the people in the category are like [51:35] vying for. [51:37] It It's not technically like that, but [51:39] it's still like it ends up being a [51:40] community. Like you end up meeting and [51:42] chatting with like the other streamers [51:44] in the category. You can raid them and [51:45] like, you know, bring your community to [51:47] them, They can bring it to you. And it [51:48] creates this like tight-knit like [51:50] community within software and game dev [51:52] that I don't think you get nearly as [51:54] much in a lot of like the game [51:55] categories on Twitch. Yeah. [51:57] >> In In a lot of Twitch, it's like it's a [51:59] very like zero-sum game to a lot of the [52:01] streamers. And I don't think it is that [52:02] way. Yeah. Well, I I can tell you that [52:04] like [52:05] my understanding was a lot of the top [52:08] players who are not like particularly [52:11] outgoing, uh but like they may not have [52:13] a face cam on or anything like that, but [52:15] they're so good at the game even if [52:16] they're not talking a lot. People will [52:17] tune in to watch them play, you know, [52:19] StarCraft or something like that just [52:21] because they're so insanely good that [52:23] you can just kind of watch them and [52:24] learn and they don't really even have to [52:25] talk. People just want to watch them [52:27] play. Sure. [52:27] >> Right? Kind of like people might like [52:29] analyze games of chess just by looking [52:31] at the notation independent of like [52:34] watching like some televised event where [52:36] there's all this drama and stuff like [52:37] that, right? Which I I find completely [52:39] the opposite of like the programming on [52:41] Twitch. Like in programming on Twitch, [52:43] you have to engage the audience. You [52:45] can't just be sitting there working with [52:47] and ignoring the the chat, right? Like [52:50] people want to like interact. Um yeah, I [52:53] don't know. Uh that is like something [52:55] that really does separate the [52:56] programming category from [52:58] from like other categories in my [53:00] opinion. Okay. So so [53:02] some tips that I'm getting from you and [53:03] I'm going to recap them. One, have a [53:04] good camera or at least good lighting. [53:06] Lighting's more important than camera. [53:07] Mhm. [53:08] >> Have a good microphone. That's the most [53:09] important. I would personally recommend [53:11] the SM53, I think is the number. I can't [53:14] remember the number, but this is the [53:15] same mic that Rob Halford from like [53:17] Judas Priest uses when he sings and [53:19] stuff. He's got a very powerful voice. [53:21] It's used by like, you know, um the [53:23] Beatle uh one of the Beatles, man, Paul [53:25] McCartney. Okay. This is his go-to mic [53:28] and it seems to be pretty good dynamic [53:29] mic and it's cheap. It's like 50 bucks [53:31] or 60 bucks or something. [53:33] >> So it's like a great deal. But you might [53:34] have better recommendation, but in terms [53:36] of audio, this this has done me pretty [53:37] well cuz I'm much more focused on audio [53:39] than I am video. Uh even though a lot of [53:41] people are watching this on YouTube, I [53:42] wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them [53:43] had like locked their phone and put it [53:45] in their pocket and they're like pumping [53:46] iron at the gym or doing dishes and [53:48] listening to this. But like [53:51] so audio, video, those are different [53:53] definitely considerations, but also [53:55] being a face in the corner or bigger. [53:59] Um because I think now everybody's [54:01] skeptical that like are you a an AI, you [54:04] know, like [54:05] >> True. [54:06] And I Yeah, thankfully like I get that [54:08] all the time when I'm emailing people, [54:09] but like [54:10] I've never had somebody watch a Free [54:12] Coke Can Podcast episode and leave a [54:13] comment that says, "Hey, is Quincy like [54:15] using some AI avatar?" Like because I'm [54:18] clearly not AI. I'm clearly a real human [54:20] being talking here and you can see that [54:22] and you can hear the modulations, the [54:24] mistakes that I make when I talk Yeah. [54:26] >> because I don't edit this. I don't try [54:27] to like A lot of people like edit their [54:28] podcast to the point that it sounds [54:31] synthetic because everything's so, [54:34] you know, clippy and like the second one [54:36] person starts talking, the next person [54:37] starts talking and there's no pauses for [54:39] thinking or anything like that. So like [54:41] on stream, you can't fake that, right? [54:42] Like I mean, I guess technically you [54:44] could fake it. Like you could do like [54:45] like VTubers is an entire category and [54:47] they're not putting their faces on, but [54:49] they've got this like emotive kind of [54:50] like 3D model and stuff, right? Um and [54:53] that allows them to be pseudo anonymous [54:55] and because I I can understand why they [54:57] would because like a lot of those [54:59] platforms are way more parasocial uh and [55:02] creepy. [55:03] Especially with like a lot of the female [55:05] streamers and stuff. [55:06] Uh like the the audience there, a lot of [55:08] weirdos out there. [55:09] Uh have you had any experiences with [55:11] weirdos or anything like that? Any bad [55:13] I've got like [55:15] I've got a few dedicated trolls [55:18] uh that are interesting. I've never met [55:20] them in person and I don't think like, [55:22] you know, they're in like totally [55:23] different countries. I don't think [55:24] they're that unhinged like that anything [55:26] weird would happen, but I'm again, I'm a [55:29] dude. [55:30] Women have it way worse. Like they have [55:32] to protect themselves way more. Uh I I [55:34] have several like women friend streamers [55:37] like BashBunny [55:38] and a bunch of others that have to be [55:40] very careful about how and [55:43] what they say and they don't want to dox [55:44] where they are and like things like [55:45] that. [55:46] Yeah. Yeah. So, that is a consideration [55:48] like your personal privacy and safety, [55:50] but um [55:52] I mean, I obviously the trade-off has [55:54] been worth it for you. Like, what do you [55:56] get out of it other than just like [55:57] obviously street cred? Like, people are [55:59] like, "Oh, this guy streams. Like, we [56:00] know he can code. We have literally [56:02] thousands of hours of archived footage [56:04] of bots of him building software." You [56:07] know, so that's like is that like one of [56:09] the major things? Like, have you gotten [56:11] sponsorships? Like, do you make any [56:13] money from like the ads? Like, you don't [56:14] have to go into too much detail. But, [56:16] like in terms of like what you get out [56:17] of doing it. Yeah. [56:18] >> Yeah, I think I make like the biggest [56:19] money maker on Twitch is the subs, [56:22] right? [56:23] But, like [56:24] if we were to break it down, I'd say I [56:26] make probably between like $400 and $700 [56:29] a month from streaming, right? $50 of [56:33] that is like ads and the rest is the [56:35] subs, right? So, that's people choosing [56:37] to like give you that money. Maybe to [56:39] avoid like the ads on stream [56:42] because they're annoyed by them, right? [56:43] And they're missing content when the ads [56:45] are showing. [56:46] But, yeah, like [56:48] you know, it's a decent amount of money. [56:50] It's not the reason I do it though. I [56:52] have done some sponsored streams too. [56:54] Like, I did a couple for Microsoft. One [56:55] was like for the [56:57] decentralized identity thing they were [56:58] doing. Another was for their like [57:00] cognitive services. So, I was like [57:03] that one was a fun stream where like [57:06] I built a project that was simply like [57:08] get doing like sentiment analysis of my [57:10] video camera and then like changing like [57:12] a bar of color above it, right? And like [57:15] thinking like, "Well, yeah, once I get [57:16] that sentiment analysis, like could I [57:18] change the [57:19] you know, instead of just a bar of color [57:21] showing my mood, we could do something [57:23] different or whatever." And I never took [57:25] it any further than that, but it was [57:26] really fun to mess with that stuff. So, [57:28] yes, I have done some sponsored streams [57:29] and those are fun. But again, I stream [57:32] myself just because like I said when I [57:35] first started, I knocked out a bunch of [57:37] side projects that I had been wanting to [57:39] work on that I couldn't motivate myself [57:41] to work on off-stream. And I still [57:44] maintain that. Like the project that I'm [57:46] mainly working on now, like most of the [57:48] projects I I have that I've built on [57:50] stream, I don't touch off-stream. So [57:53] like and I do that purposefully. I want [57:57] to motivate myself to come back to [57:58] stream. So number one, if I'm not [58:02] working on it off-stream, that means [58:03] everyone sees every single aspect of the [58:05] project. They see me struggle, they see [58:07] me go through like every decision, every [58:09] thought. And that has value to them. It [58:13] has value to me too because if I'm not [58:15] allowing myself to work on it [58:16] off-stream, that's just extra motivation [58:19] to click that go live button every day, [58:20] right? Some days I don't I might not [58:23] want to like be that social, [58:25] but you know what? I really want to work [58:27] on the project. And then other days, I I [58:28] might not care about the project as [58:30] much. I just want to hang out with my [58:31] community. So there's this like [58:33] double-edged sword of like just doubling [58:35] the motivation. When one isn't there, [58:37] the other is like the thing for me. And [58:40] I kind of like doubled that from like [58:41] when I was snowboarding. [58:43] There were days where I just really want [58:45] to snowboard. And then there were days [58:46] where I'm working in the terrain park [58:47] and I have to snowboard. [58:49] Yeah. [58:49] >> still like just by doing that, it means [58:52] you're putting more time in the saddle [58:53] the way the prime engine puts it. And uh [58:56] yeah, I just I really value that. [58:58] Yeah, absolutely. So let's say [59:00] hypothetically that uh somebody wanted [59:04] to [59:05] essentially get into the field. 2026. [59:08] You know a lot about how you you [59:10] probably talk with people all the time. [59:12] We certainly do. About like, oh, you [59:14] know, the LLM tools are destroying the [59:16] field. Like there's not going to be any [59:17] jobs. Or um like why even bother [59:20] learning programming cuz I can just [59:22] prompt an LLM a proprietary LLM tool [59:24] which which would never have, you know, [59:26] vendor lock-in or anything. Yeah, I [59:27] know, right? [59:28] >> Right? [59:29] Yeah, like uh like [59:31] why why bother learning programming? [59:32] Like like what advice would you give to [59:34] somebody who wants to get into the field [59:36] who ultimately would like to [59:39] get some clients, build some skills, get [59:42] a job, get paid to learn more during [59:44] their job, and then eventually create uh [59:46] probably the two exit strategies that I [59:48] see. With a third exit strategy, I just [59:50] had somebody who retired at age 38 on my [59:54] podcast. Uh congratulations to them. Uh [59:56] but [59:57] like [59:58] uh somebody wants to ultimately create [60:01] like a product-oriented startup, or they [60:03] want to create like some sort of [60:05] software agency. Uh and and those are [60:07] generally the ways that you kind of like [60:09] move from being an individual [60:10] contributor who's beholden to some [60:12] company and limiting their income to you [60:15] can determine your own level of income [60:17] based on how many clients you can get, [60:18] how many people you can get underneath [60:20] you. And then that's where like you [60:22] know, the the real money gets made [60:23] generally is being like higher up in [60:25] some sort of hierarchy beneath you. [60:27] Yeah. [60:27] >> Not in a giant corporation, but in a [60:30] place that you have full control of [60:31] yourself. Like let's say that that's the [60:33] dream for [60:34] I'm going to like half the people [60:35] listening to this. Half of the people [60:36] would just be happy to have a a stable [60:38] job, but [60:40] let's say that is the dream. [60:41] What are What's your current like read [60:44] on like what people should do to get [60:46] there given all the the change um going [60:50] on right now? [60:51] So, [60:53] I mean, just approaching it from like a [60:54] startup perspective. [60:56] You have to understand your product. Uh [61:00] you can hammer out a an MVP or a proof [61:02] of concept really easily with these LLM [61:05] tools, and that's going to be fine in [61:08] most cases to at least like prove an [61:09] idea. But the moment you get past that, [61:12] you have to worry about security, you [61:13] have to worry about your users and [61:15] feedback, and you have to like ship [61:17] these things in a way that is [61:19] maintainable and tenable. And [61:22] I've heard from a lot of people who are [61:25] in various like agency positions, there [61:28] is a lot of work for them now because [61:30] people are vibe coding out these like [61:32] proof of concepts and then they're not [61:34] capable of maintaining it beyond that. [61:36] They're not capable of like making it [61:38] robust and leak proof. Like the Mult [61:40] book, like leakage of all of those API [61:42] keys for every bot on Mult book. That's [61:45] crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. [61:47] >> this is going to be a massive loss of [61:48] data that essentially wipes out most of [61:50] the value of that company. [61:51] >> think so. Yeah, right? Like just [61:54] no matter what as developers, we are [61:57] responsible for whatever we're assigning [61:59] our name to, whether A and AI did it for [62:01] us or not. Right? Someone is that in [62:04] line item in the Git history of I [62:06] committed this even if an LLM did it on [62:08] my behalf. So, you can't escape the [62:10] liability of writing bad code. [62:13] Eventually, that liability will catch up [62:15] with you. So, no matter what, [62:17] uh learn LLMs, learn how to use them. [62:20] I I don't think there's any doubt about [62:21] that in my mind. [62:23] But don't treat it like some silver [62:25] bullet. And then maybe not even from [62:27] like a startup perspective, but from [62:28] like a working at a company perspective, [62:32] there's always going to be a need for [62:33] devs because management never takes on [62:35] extra tasks. That's not what they do, [62:38] ever. Right? Back in the '70s, SQL's [62:40] going to kill developer jobs because [62:41] management can just like do the data [62:43] queries themselves. [62:45] Did that happen? No, definitely not. [62:49] So, that's my approach to it. I think in [62:51] general, there will be room for experts. [62:54] The way that we get things done may [62:56] change and that's that's always going to [62:57] happen. Stuff will change over time. How [62:59] we create the code will change, right? [63:02] There are people that when IntelliSense [63:04] came out in Visual Studio, they weren't [63:07] allowed to use that for some reason. [63:09] And I think sure, that was short-sided [63:11] on the company's part and there are [63:13] people out there who refused to use [63:15] IntelliSense because it takes away some [63:18] part of the code. LLM's are just the [63:20] evolution of that same mentality in my [63:22] opinion. [63:24] I want to repeat what you just said [63:25] because I think it's really profound and [63:26] I think it really informs a lot of the [63:28] discourse around this like [63:30] people have this like weird vibe that [63:33] like managers are just itching to do [63:35] more work and they can't wait to [63:37] eliminate the people that are doing that [63:38] work for them. [63:40] Uh, why? May like it's not like unless [63:42] they're running the company, it's not [63:43] like they're suddenly going to get this [63:45] giant like pay bump hey we we laid off [63:47] all these developers and all their the [63:48] money we were going to be giving to them [63:49] we're giving to you now. That doesn't [63:51] happen. That never happens, right? Maybe [63:53] you get like some sort of you know [63:54] promotion and maybe a little bit of pay [63:56] bump but it you know, you're going to be [63:58] doing a lot more work. You're going to [63:59] be having a lot more liability as you [64:01] said, you know, you've got a lot more [64:03] responsibility on your back. You don't [64:04] know what you're doing and uh [64:06] I I am a manager uh and I have lots of [64:10] friends and I was a manager before I got [64:11] into software development. I was running [64:12] schools. I had teams of like you know, [64:15] 25, 30 teachers and stuff like that, [64:17] right? Like that's probably actually my [64:19] core competency. I'm I'm a much better [64:20] manager than I am a developer. So again, [64:22] I don't mean any slight to managers [64:25] uh [64:25] but they they have a hard job too and [64:27] they're not all just like the Dilbert [64:29] boss. Like there are good managers out [64:30] there too. But like what you said, you [64:32] said [64:34] I just want to quote it directly cuz I I [64:35] I've been taking furious notes as you've [64:37] been talking. Management will never take [64:39] on extra jobs. SQL did not kill database [64:41] administrators. Yes, in theory a manager [64:43] who knows SQL well can just go go get [64:45] the data themselves. They could probably [64:47] just you know, get the reports generated [64:48] and all that stuff and and to an extent [64:50] I think actually a lot of these LLM [64:52] tools are going to be like more [64:55] dangerous for like people who are doing [64:57] like data science kind of like adjacent [64:59] type roles not like the real hardcore [65:01] data science but like the people who are [65:02] just doing quick data visualizations for [65:04] management and stuff like that um [65:06] because it does make those tools a lot [65:08] more accessible to managers and managers [65:09] are much better like a manager can look [65:11] at a spreadsheet and generally [65:13] understand what's going on. They can't [65:14] necessarily look at a, you know, uh like [65:17] a database schema or a code base and [65:19] understand what's going on, right? Even [65:21] us as devs, we often struggle with these [65:23] things, right? And we're specialists. [65:24] So, [65:25] I I think that's an extremely heartening [65:27] observation. Also, what you said, LLMs [65:29] aren't a silver bullet. Learn how to use [65:31] them, but don't treat them like a silver [65:33] bullet. Um [65:35] and I think that's an extremely [65:36] practical perspective. Um I just want to [65:39] end on one more question that that you [65:42] are uniquely qualified to answer among [65:44] the many guests I've had. This is not a [65:45] programming-related question. Uh we've [65:47] talked about programming plenty. I hope [65:48] everybody who tuned in to get Chris's [65:50] programming takes has gotten their fill [65:52] cuz, man, there is a lot of knowledge [65:54] here. [65:55] Uh but and and again, I'm going to [65:57] encourage everybody to go watch your [65:58] stream, watch this man at work. [66:00] Uh but [66:02] you've spent more than 2,000 days on the [66:04] slopes snowboarding. [66:07] And you lived as a a self-professed [66:09] snowboarding bum. Snowboarding bum. [66:11] Which there's ski bums, there's beach [66:13] like surf bums, there like any kind of [66:15] like [66:16] I guess like relatively inexpensive [66:18] sport where there's like not like you're [66:20] not going to generally find like uh polo [66:23] bums. [66:24] Right? Right? [66:26] But but like any sport where where like [66:27] anybody in theory if they have some [66:29] time, they can spend like a thousand [66:31] bucks and get the gear that they need [66:32] and go hit the slopes, right? [66:35] For people out there who've always [66:37] wanted to do a ski trip. Like, "Oh, man, [66:38] I've really wanted to go skiing." Like, [66:39] "But isn't that expensive? Like, don't [66:41] you need to go to like some big resort [66:42] and spend like what is the most [66:44] economical way you would say to [66:46] somebody, let's say hypothetically [66:47] they're not going to take their kids, [66:48] maybe they're even single and they don't [66:49] have kids or anybody else. Like, what [66:51] would be the most economical way if [66:53] they're in the states to just get out on [66:55] the slopes and try either snowboarding [66:57] or skiing?" And like like what what [66:59] would you advise them? [67:01] Yeah, see, I mean, I think that's tough. [67:04] Um [67:04] just because it is not a cheap sport and [67:07] it's gotten more expensive since I was [67:09] even a snowboard bum, right? Over the [67:11] past 15 years since I kind of like, you [67:13] know, stopped being a full-time [67:15] snowboarder, it has gotten exponentially [67:18] more expensive, it seems, right? Like, [67:20] uh just Vail buying up all these resorts [67:22] and charging $200 a day. [67:24] So, I think that's tough. Um [67:26] if you can get out for night riding, [67:28] that's usually a lot cheaper. If you can [67:30] get out for [67:32] like off-peak days, [67:34] that can usually help. Um [67:37] rentals are a good way to like [67:40] try things out, but eventually you're [67:43] going to want to get your own gear. And [67:44] what I would say about getting your own [67:45] gear is do not worry about getting like [67:48] the latest and greatest stuff. You can [67:50] get a snowboard from 4 or 5 years ago [67:52] that is just as good as the stuff out [67:55] there right now, right? Like, the tech [67:56] doesn't move that fast. Now, you don't [67:58] want to go 20 years back, but five [68:01] five-year-old snowboard is going to be [68:03] just fine. [68:04] Right? So, like, don't worry about [68:06] getting like the latest and greatest [68:07] newest gear. [68:08] That might be like a good way to like [68:10] adopt snowboarding as more of a hobby. [68:12] And [68:13] maybe not just for like a quick trip, [68:15] but if you find that you really like it, [68:17] get a season's pass and buy it early, [68:19] like before the next season, right? [68:21] Because that is the the best way. If you [68:23] can get a a Steven's Pass season's pass [68:26] for like, I don't know, like at the [68:27] earliest, I think like $500 for just [68:29] Steven's Pass, you pay that off at like [68:32] lift ticket rates within five usages. [68:34] Like, five days on the resort and you've [68:36] paid off that entire pass. [68:38] Right? So, just thinking about like [68:41] it's a lot harder to do it and dabble. [68:44] If you really do start enjoying it, [68:45] there are ways to make it cheaper. Uh in [68:47] terms of terms of gear, just to pull on [68:49] one more thread, like if if you would [68:51] you be comfortable uh if you're just [68:53] going to go like not do it at like a [68:54] really serious level, but if you just [68:56] wanted to get some gear, uh and you saw [68:58] like what looked like a good deal on [68:59] like Craigslist or something like that, [69:00] is used gear viable or is it dangerous [69:02] to use used gear? [69:05] I think that's the toughest part because [69:07] used gear, it's hard for a beginner to [69:10] know what's actually like new enough [69:12] that it's worth using. [69:14] Um you probably don't want to do used [69:16] boots, right? Like someone else's foot [69:19] just sweating and stinking in this [69:20] thing. You should probably get your own [69:21] boots at least. Uh but snowboard and [69:23] bindings, yeah, you can get used [69:25] snowboard and bindings just fine. The [69:27] problem I would say with like Craigslist [69:29] and Facebook Marketplace is [69:32] people [69:34] people try and sell like [69:37] 4-year-old snowboards for what they paid [69:39] for it, not recognizing that these [69:41] things do have a depreciating cost. So, [69:44] at some point [69:46] I [69:47] you can get good deals on those [69:49] marketplaces. I In general, you get [69:52] people selling something ancient, [69:54] something that they maybe [69:57] somehow got a free rental snowboard and [69:59] they're just selling it for 40 bucks, [70:00] but rental snowboards are kind of junk [70:02] anyway. [70:03] It's a lot tougher to find those deals [70:04] on Craigslist that are actually like a [70:07] good deal. [70:08] Um and yeah, bindings are one of the [70:10] things that would be maybe the most [70:12] dangerous of like buying used because if [70:15] it's really old, like the plastic in [70:17] bindings oxidizes. [70:19] Uh when I was working in rentals, there [70:21] were skiers that had these like ski [70:23] boots from the '70s [70:24] and they would just it shatter, right? [70:27] Because the the boots have been [70:29] oxidizing in their closet for the past [70:30] 20 years. They go out maybe once a year [70:33] and then on a somewhat colder day, they [70:35] go out and their boots just blow up. [70:38] Uh and that was like a very common thing [70:39] in the in the rental [70:41] space. [70:42] Okay, so maybe don't don't uh like get [70:45] it from a like Are most of these rental [70:47] shops owned by like the the resort [70:49] itself or like some some contracted like [70:51] But but like how safe is the rental gear [70:53] generally? Are they are they pretty [70:55] vigilant about testing it? Oh, rental [70:57] gear is usually uh pretty good. Yeah, [70:59] like most most uh rental shops I I don't [71:03] even know if they're like fully like [71:04] buying their fleet every time. Like some [71:07] may have like a deal worked out where [71:08] they're getting like [71:10] you know, two like no older than [71:12] 2-year-old gear and they're just like [71:13] cycling it like through like the the [71:15] company like as a lease kind of program [71:17] kind of thing. So, it just depends. Uh [71:19] rental gear is typically not going to be [71:21] the best, but it's better than [71:26] than like a 20-year-old board, you know. [71:29] In terms of safety, that's another thing [71:30] people might be worried about. [71:31] Obviously, you said you have lots of [71:33] injuries and stuff. I assume you take [71:34] more risks as a snowboarder at least you [71:36] did when you were younger than like the [71:38] typical person who's going for the first [71:39] time. But, would you recommend wearing a [71:41] helmet? [71:42] Um I mean [71:45] people should probably wear helmets. I [71:47] don't because I have opinions about [71:50] that. I don't think my opinion should [71:51] matter towards other people. You should [71:53] probably wear a helmet. Uh okay. Yeah. [71:56] And then like any other like just safety [71:58] advice that you would give people like [72:00] like everybody knows this, but maybe you [72:03] going snowboarding for the first time or [72:04] skiing for the first time. For [72:05] programmers especially, when you're [72:07] snowboarding [72:09] if you're going to fall, don't put your [72:10] hands out, right? Tuck up, right? [72:13] Because your wrist is how you make your [72:15] money as a programmer, right? You cannot [72:18] afford to mess this part up. [72:20] So, just learning how to fall is maybe [72:23] one of the most important skills you can [72:24] have as a snowboarder. And that's maybe [72:26] why like I'm not as concerned about the [72:28] helmet thing because I have this habit [72:30] of like boom, this is where my arms go [72:32] whenever I'm doing like a major fall. [72:34] It's just like reflex cuz in powder when [72:37] you fall and you're rag dolling, you [72:38] don't want your gear flying off, right? [72:40] You're with a helmet that wouldn't be an [72:41] issue, so maybe I should. But, just like [72:44] having your goggles fly off into the [72:45] powder is so annoying that I've just [72:47] developed this habit of if I'm falling, [72:49] boom, that's where my arms go. [72:51] And it just saves me from like you know, [72:55] wrist injuries and some of that stuff. [72:56] So, in general just like yeah. [72:59] Figuring out how to [72:59] >> be scary because you're going to like [73:02] fall further, right? Like you're going [73:03] to have more kinetic energy when you [73:05] hit, but you're going to be hitting on I [73:07] guess like a more durable like if you [73:08] think like in boxing, you know, people [73:10] block with their arms and stuff. Yeah. [73:12] Right? So, so in theory like I guess [73:15] this is durable enough. Well, I mean in [73:18] general like the just the physics of it [73:19] there's like uh the amount of pressure [73:21] that something takes is based upon like [73:24] the amount of force times the amount of [73:26] like surface area that's hitting. Yeah. [73:27] So, if you're like increasing that [73:29] surface area, you're absorbing more [73:31] impact, right? Regardless of the extra [73:33] force you might have gotten by catching [73:34] yourself. [73:35] >> an an extra, you know, foot because [73:37] you're like this instead of like this. [73:38] Like I always would fall and like put my [73:40] fists out instead of my fingers cuz I [73:42] didn't want to bend my arm like that, [73:43] but like this sounds better. I'm going [73:44] to start doing this. Next time I'm [73:46] boarding. Um man, this has been a really [73:49] helpful [73:50] uh like I'm I'm so glad you shared those [73:52] uh snowboarding tips. Like for anybody [73:53] that's going out there like if you get a [73:55] chance, like it's so fun. It is [73:57] expensive. It It is cold. That's the [74:00] That's the thing that a lot of people [74:01] like, "Hey, I didn't sign up to be [74:02] freaking freezing the whole day." And it [74:04] does get really cold and it gets really [74:06] awkward cuz your nose is dripping and [74:07] you're like rubbing with your gloves. Do [74:09] you use finger gloves or mittens? I do [74:10] mittens. Okay. Cuz your fingers are [74:13] close together so they keep one another [74:14] warm a little bit. [74:16] >> they keep warmer that way. Like the [74:17] gloves I have are extremely thin. Like [74:19] some people get these like super thick [74:21] mitts, but yeah, I just use very thin [74:23] like mittens because the fingers are [74:25] close so you're not getting like the [74:26] cold pinky. [74:27] Uh and yeah, I don't know. Like uh [74:31] what I think a lot of people mistake is [74:34] they end up bundling up too much and [74:36] then they get this like sweat going and [74:38] sweat is actually like the enemy when [74:40] you're snowboarding because that will [74:42] actually get cold way quicker and you're [74:44] going to start like Yeah, you're going [74:46] to get hypothermia. [74:47] >> Yeah, exactly. sweat gets super cold. [74:49] So, you want to avoid sweating. [74:51] Uh which is why like I do very thin [74:52] mitts. Yeah. Yeah, I mean like like one [74:54] of my friends snowboards and he he just [74:56] wears like a t-shirt basically. [74:58] And sunscreen, of course. That's the [75:00] other thing I'll say. Wear your [75:01] sunscreen when you're snowboarding or [75:02] skiing. Uh one last question. Like ski [75:05] or snowboarding? Like if if somebody's [75:07] going on a trip and they've got like [75:09] small children, [75:10] like my kids started off with skiing [75:12] like and they've only gone I think once. [75:14] Which which by the way is a very [75:16] privileged thing. Like I I realize that [75:18] not everybody has the luxury of taking [75:19] their kids skiing. Like that's a huge [75:22] kind of like expenditure taking your [75:23] family and and getting a hotel and like [75:26] going up and doing the lift tickets and [75:27] the rentals all that stuff. I mean, [75:28] you're potentially out like thousands of [75:30] dollars if you've got a family of four. [75:32] Uh not to mention the travel costs and [75:33] stuff like that. Um but uh so so I don't [75:37] think they're likely is is I'm very [75:38] proud that I was able to take my kids [75:40] skiing and they really enjoyed it. But [75:42] would you recommend kids start with [75:45] snowboard or skiing and then adults as [75:47] well if they've never done it before? [75:48] Where would you recommend they start? [75:49] I think that's that's tough. Um I think [75:53] skiing to start out is worthwhile if [75:55] you've never done anything where you're [75:57] kind of sliding like that. So, if you've [75:59] never done skateboarding, if you've [76:00] never done ice skating or rollerblading [76:02] or any of that, right? If you're not [76:04] familiar with that like sliding feeling, [76:06] skis are probably a better way to get [76:07] started. Um [76:10] especially for kids. I I think the nice [76:12] part is it's like so [76:14] kids are still figuring out how to use [76:16] their body, right? So, like they're [76:18] still like not even that good at walking [76:19] yet. So, at least give them like the [76:21] thing that's closer to walking. [76:23] Um [76:24] >> Yeah. [76:25] At least for like the first few times. [76:26] And if they start to really like being [76:28] out on the snow and they want to [76:29] snowboard, well, yeah. I think [76:31] snowboarding's great, too. [76:32] Um the part I will say is a snowboard [76:35] does feel more versatile to me. Like I [76:37] can take my park board, which is a a [76:40] It's not the biggest board. I'm not the [76:42] biggest person though. And I can ride [76:43] powder with that thing. I can ride it [76:45] anywhere. Whereas like skis, you end up [76:47] needing like very specialized skis to [76:49] enjoy powder better. All right? You need [76:51] very specialized skis to ride park [76:52] better. Things like that. And I can just [76:55] I can use my same snowboard anywhere. I [76:57] don't have a quiver of snowboards. I [76:59] just I got one. [77:00] Yeah, very cool. Well, Chris [77:03] Chris Griffing, it's been an absolute [77:04] pleasure interviewing you on the [77:06] freeCodeCamp podcast, learning more [77:07] about you and your prolific stint on [77:11] uh Twitch streaming, programming, and [77:13] making programming accessible and and [77:15] you know, just like the mistakes and all [77:18] approach, building the the entire [77:20] project on stream, so people get to see [77:22] every aspect of the struggle, the [77:25] creative process, the piping and [77:27] plumbing and all all that kind of [77:29] mundane stuff that you do as well. I I [77:31] mean, just putting that out there, [77:32] that's a huge service for the developer [77:33] community. So, I want to commend you and [77:35] I want to thank you again for coming on [77:36] the podcast. Yeah, I appreciate it. [77:38] Thanks for having me. Like uh yeah, I'm [77:40] a huge fan of freeCodeCamp. People come [77:41] in all the time asking about like, "Oh, [77:43] how how should I learn how to be a web [77:45] dev?" I send them to freeCodeCamp. Thank [77:47] you. That means a lot to me. And uh [77:49] yeah, uh shout out to anybody who's a [77:52] regular at Chris's [77:54] um stream who who came in here, like we [77:56] welcome you. Uh [77:58] and we have a Discord too. If you're if [77:59] you're in Chris's Discord, we're just [78:01] like a Discord hop away, [78:02] chat.freecodecamp.org. [78:04] And we'd love to chat with you, too. And [78:06] we are not going anywhere. We're going [78:08] to focus on continuing to inject rigor [78:11] into your studies and not just show [78:13] people a bunch of shortcuts with LLMs [78:15] and stuff like that. Like [78:16] as I've said many times, I don't want to [78:18] make this [78:19] podcast very long. I'm not a detractor [78:21] from these tools. I think people should [78:22] learn these tools. But I do think that [78:24] they should learn the fundamentals like [78:26] Chris has done here and that he [78:27] continues to show the manual process of [78:30] developing software while using some [78:32] contemporary tools as well. Uh [78:34] it's just like a very balanced take on [78:36] this. and and I really enjoyed this [78:38] conversation. Everybody until next week, [78:41] happy coding. [78:42] Yep, happy coding everyone. Thank you.